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I don't know why people are expecting the kind of supercivilizations that build Dyson spheres. It just seems too over-the-top. The sheer amount of resources av

by jotm 12y ago

I don't know why people are expecting the kind of supercivilizations that build Dyson spheres. It just seems too over-the-top. The sheer amount of resources available in our own solar system, one solar system, is mind-boggling and enough to sustain a civilization for millions, maybe billions of years. At least for humans, there would be no need to waste resources encasing the Sun in some gargantuan structure. Instead, we'd have local nuclear fusion reactors that would be powered by a steady stream of materials from the outside. Small, effective, no single point of failure, perfectly in line with our love for individualism. That, plus the optimization of resource usage (lower energy consumption, more recycling, etc.) - we'd be more likely to reach a certain technological point and expand as far as possible (=pretty much infinitely in space) instead of building some crazy s&&t in our galactic downtown. To make an analogy, once we created sailing ships and navigation, we explored and conquered the whole planet. There was no need to create internal combustion engines or advanced life support systems. Those are optional even today.

danieltillett 12y ago
All it takes is one civilisation in a galaxy to do this and it takes everything. It is fine to hypothesise that most civilisations won't want to spread, but since it only takes one this is unlikely that all won't if civilisations are common.
raverbashing 12y ago
Also a Dyson sphere is a stretch It's based on our limited view of thinking that that's the best way of harnessing all energy needed Do you really think someone with a very advanced technology needs to surround an existing star to get all the energy they need? They'll probably need less energy than we do, and have more smart ways of getting it (probably with Fusion, but on a small scale)
dave_sullivan 12y ago
I agree. Dyson sphere is the right idea (higher energy requirements) but wrong implementation. One idea I've heard that I really like is that some black holes and very dense objects are actually alien civilizations that have uploaded their brains to computers and miniaturized. So basically, some black holes == dyson spheres. It's not as crazy as it sounds! http://accelerating.org/articles/transcensionhypothesis.html http://accelerating.org/articles/transcensionhypothesis.html
- zackmorris 12y ago
  Still too over the top. Probably the easiest way to do it would be a Dyson “mirror”, maybe two cone-shaped mirrors built around a star that focus the radiation into a disk, or a parabola on one side, something like that to harness the power and project it where it's needed (most likely to power solar sails for traveling between stars). So probably we should be looking for stars with irregular brightness that's not due to planets or instability. At some point they should also find lines connecting stars where the dust is hotter than it should be. They probably won’t find any of this, which is perplexing.
sriku 12y ago
It seems possible to apply Paul Graham's "blub language" principle to the Kardashev civilization categories. It may boggle the mind of a type N civilization to imagine use for the kinds of energies that a type N+1 civilization may consume, but would be obvious to the type N+1 civilization. If you do need an energy amount that a star produces, would it be possible to get a source that's more compact than a star itself? The fusion in a star is a runaway process. Does physics let us do it better than a runaway process? edit: It is interesting to examine this from an artistic and play perspective too. If I had the means, I imagine it would be fun to have "planet sculpting" as a hobby. We ought to be able to detect such civilizations by looking for non-spheroid planets? As a kid I've burnt leaves and written on paper by focusing sunlight using a lens. Imagine a type II kid being told "go to the other solar system and play with your megalens there, dear". Would type II civilizations have "kids"? "Look mommy, I made a tetrahedron by welding four planets." "Wow, this circus rocks! How they juggle 5 intersecting solar systems without the planets crashing into each other!"

by jotm 12y ago

danieltillett 12y ago

All it takes is one civilisation in a galaxy to do this and it takes everything. It is fine to hypothesise that most civilisations won't want to spread, but since it only takes one this is unlikely that all won't if civilisations are common.

raverbashing 12y ago

Also a Dyson sphere is a stretch It's based on our limited view of thinking that that's the best way of harnessing all energy needed Do you really think someone with a very advanced technology needs to surround an existing star to get all the energy they need? They'll probably need less energy than we do, and have more smart ways of getting it (probably with Fusion, but on a small scale)

dave_sullivan 12y ago

I agree. Dyson sphere is the right idea (higher energy requirements) but wrong implementation. One idea I've heard that I really like is that some black holes and very dense objects are actually alien civilizations that have uploaded their brains to computers and miniaturized. So basically, some black holes == dyson spheres. It's not as crazy as it sounds! http://accelerating.org/articles/transcensionhypothesis.html http://accelerating.org/articles/transcensionhypothesis.html

zackmorris 12y ago
Still too over the top. Probably the easiest way to do it would be a Dyson “mirror”, maybe two cone-shaped mirrors built around a star that focus the radiation into a disk, or a parabola on one side, something like that to harness the power and project it where it's needed (most likely to power solar sails for traveling between stars). So probably we should be looking for stars with irregular brightness that's not due to planets or instability. At some point they should also find lines connecting stars where the dust is hotter than it should be. They probably won’t find any of this, which is perplexing.

sriku 12y ago

It seems possible to apply Paul Graham's "blub language" principle to the Kardashev civilization categories. It may boggle the mind of a type N civilization to imagine use for the kinds of energies that a type N+1 civilization may consume, but would be obvious to the type N+1 civilization. If you do need an energy amount that a star produces, would it be possible to get a source that's more compact than a star itself? The fusion in a star is a runaway process. Does physics let us do it better than a runaway process? edit: It is interesting to examine this from an artistic and play perspective too. If I had the means, I imagine it would be fun to have "planet sculpting" as a hobby. We ought to be able to detect such civilizations by looking for non-spheroid planets? As a kid I've burnt leaves and written on paper by focusing sunlight using a lens. Imagine a type II kid being told "go to the other solar system and play with your megalens there, dear". Would type II civilizations have "kids"? "Look mommy, I made a tetrahedron by welding four planets." "Wow, this circus rocks! How they juggle 5 intersecting solar systems without the planets crashing into each other!"