7 ms·

Leonardo da Vinci’s resume

83 points by pmcpinto 12y ago

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
ColinWright 12y ago
Lots of people concentrate on the language, but it's the approach and attitude that's critical. Quoting from the article: You'll notice he doesn’t recite past achievements. He doesn't mention the painting of the altarpiece for the Chapel of St. Bernard; he doesn't provide a laundry list ... (snip) No, he does none of these things, because those would be about his achievements, not the Duke's needs. Instead, he sells his prospective employer on what Leonardo can do for him. I see so many job applications that are exactly a laundry list of achievements, and nothing about what the applicant could do for me. And that’s exactly what your resume needs to do, too. Not the laundry list/standard bio that talks about you, but the marketing piece that talks about the benefits to your future employer and how you fit into his or her needs and desires. This got a lot of discussion some years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2234231 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2234231 More recent submissions, less so: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3857531 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3857531 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4662582 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4662582 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7497155 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7497155 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9393330 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9393330 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9395139 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9395139 Have HN's tastes changed? Has it simply not been noticed?
- kristopolous 12y ago
  The whole thing is a dice roll. Have you tried to work the social media sauce? At its most scientific it's still just a game of statistics - until you get "a following"; whatever that is.
  - visakanv 12y ago
    I think on HN it depends on how quickly you get a few strong responses. (which can be largely random, less you're super-deliberate about it.) If you want to work the social media sauce, the best way is to get a few people having an actual conversation with you ASAP, through the intended medium you want to seed. Flickr, Reddit, Quora, etc all started out this way. I suppose it's necessary but not necessarily sufficient.
- Houshalter 12y ago
  Also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1086391 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1086391
- tjradcliffe 12y ago
  > I see so many job applications that are exactly a laundry list of achievements, and nothing about what the applicant could do for me. There is another side to this, which is that many job ads don't provide anything like enough information for candidates to do that. Most job ads tell us what skills are desired, and a tiny bit about the industry the company works in, and even less about the specific project the candidate would be focused on. It's difficult for me to tell you, "I can bring your galambosian robotics framework to the next level by applying the latest Fibonacci refactoring techniques!" if all I know is "we're a leading-edge company working on bringing killer robots to the masses!" Furthermore, the cover letter will in many cases be screened by an HR wonk who isn't qualified to judge any of that. So the approach of a cover letter that points up specific expertise that may apply to the position is often the best a candidate can do. "My work on galambosian robotics frameworks has definite application to the world of killer robots" is at least as much "pointing out past achievements" as "telling what I can do for you", but without a lot more information than companies are willing to give, it's difficult to make it better. The hiring process is profoundly broken.
  - ColinWright 12y ago
    > The hiring process is profoundly broken. That's certainly true, and we agree on that. More, you make good and valid points. Having said that, there is more that candidates can do. They can find out what the company does, for a start. Then if the ad says what skills are required, state clearly that you have the skill and provide evidence. Those two things along will put you ahead of 90% of other applicants. "I work well in groups, but also work well alone." - you and every other applicant will claim that. Provide evidence. Leonardo didn't have a detailed job description to work from, he put in some thought about what his potential employer would want, and then demonstrated that he could provide it. > we're a leading-edge company working on > bringing killer robots to the masses! Then you'll need control systems, real-time software, image analysis, goal-oriented planning systems, etc. Do you have those skills? Say so and provide evidence. You won't know exactly what frameworks they use, but you can demonstrate the ability to move between frameworks taking with you your underlying design and problem solving skills. I agree entirely that the hiring process is broken, but you can get well ahead by being different and relevant. And if your application doesn't get past the HR wonks, is it really somewhere you want to work?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- B-Con 12y ago
  > I see so many job applications that are exactly a laundry list of achievements, and nothing about what the applicant could do for me. Seems like to me that the unspoken implication by a lot of employers in how they conduct the hiring process is that they would rather assess that themselves. The candidate lists what they "are" (which is often done as the sum of their past) and the employer decides whether they are a person who will fit what they need.
- anon4 12y ago
  I don't understand one thing. Why would HR trust a person who says "I can do X"? Everyone can say that. But not everyone can say "I did X". Is hiring really predicated upon the naivete of those doing it?
  - ColinWright 12y ago
    The point is that the "I did X" should be listed specifically to support the statement "I can do Y." Start with what you know or deduce the the prospective employer needs and wants, then demonstrate evidence that you can do it.
pjmlp 12y ago
Thanks for sharing it with us. I wasn't aware of such document from Leonardos's life was available. Quite interesting, specially since history and languages across centuries are some of my interests. Also interesting to wonder how a typical HR department would take such a letter in our time.
- speakeron 12y ago
  It would be fine as long as you attached your resume as well. (And, of course, given that they were looking for experts in siege warfare).
dalacv 12y ago
Basically, it's a cover letter.
- notahacker 12y ago
  This. If your actual resume consists mostly or exclusively of theoretical future accomplishments, employers will be justified in wondering whether you've actually successfully done anything. If your cover letter consists mostly of rehashing what you've done in the past rather than what you can do in the specific role, employers will be justified in being sceptical about whether you've actually considered whether you're actually the candidate they need.
  - vinceguidry 12y ago
    Leonardo existed in an age where the key players were few and everyone of import knew each other. He didn't have to recite past accomplishments, because all the people he was writing letters to already knew what they were. Had he been an unknown nobody, he'd have had to bring additional context to his appeal for employment just like everyone else.
    - kcovia 12y ago
      Actually, he wrote this employment letter in 1482, before he made anything of serious artistic importance. He may have been somewhat known in the artistic community, but he was by no means very well known.
      - vinceguidry 12y ago
        I mean, here in this age, nobody's going to know who you are as an artist before you make something important. But in the 1400s, just being an artist is a huge enough accomplishment that people are going to know who you are. Also too, what's important to us now is not the same thing as what would have been important to 1400s upper crust society. The main point I'm trying to make is that 1400s Europe was a really small world. So different than the one we find ourselves in that, if you want to take anything at all from Leonardo's cover letter, adopting his language will probably get you much farther than adopting his actual technique, which was devised to fit the needs of the 1400s.
perdunov 12y ago
I am totally writing a resume based on this.
- perdunov 12y ago
  This type of comments are frowned upon on HN, as they add nothing to the discussion and create noise. So don't make such comments anymore.
  - perdunov 12y ago
    Understood.
pibi 12y ago
"Faccio il tifo per te" instead of "Sto tifo per te". Anyhow, thanks for sharing it, I will rewrite my resume based on this approach.
coldcode 12y ago
Of course he didn't have to deal with recruiters who only match on keywords and HR people whose eyes are easily glazed over. Or respond to job ads or emails filled with buzzwords that are required. I too wish I could just write a positive note to the CEO.
- joaofranco 12y ago
  "Thanks Leo, We are seeking for a junior position, that already have experience with 5 years of Church painting, and 3 years of Mayans/Aztec Arts."
mattip 12y ago
Born April 15, 1452, this week 563 years ago
bikamonki 12y ago
War: the engine of invention.
bayonetz 12y ago
I think Leo is overselling his chariots a little bit. Looks like resume padding never goes out of style. I like how at the very end he says as almost an aside, "I'm pretty good at this art stuff too if think you'd need some of that?"
super-serial 12y ago
So did he get the job? Or was his letter looked over because the Duke's assistant was looking for a technology using "sulfur"... and Da Vinci didn't mention it in his resume.
anon4 12y ago
Apart from all the other points raised, this reads a lot like a list of "I know all these unpatched zero-day exploits in the enemy's engineering".
bshimmin 12y ago
I get the impression he wouldn't bother with LinkedIn.

83 points by pmcpinto 12y ago

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

Lots of people concentrate on the language, but it's the approach and attitude that's critical. Quoting from the article: You'll notice he doesn’t recite past achievements. He doesn't mention the painting of the altarpiece for the Chapel of St. Bernard; he doesn't provide a laundry list ... (snip) No, he does none of these things, because those would be about his achievements, not the Duke's needs. Instead, he sells his prospective employer on what Leonardo can do for him. I see so many job applications that are exactly a laundry list of achievements, and nothing about what the applicant could do for me. And that’s exactly what your resume needs to do, too. Not the laundry list/standard bio that talks about you, but the marketing piece that talks about the benefits to your future employer and how you fit into his or her needs and desires. This got a lot of discussion some years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2234231 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2234231 More recent submissions, less so: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3857531 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3857531 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4662582 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4662582 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7497155 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7497155 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9393330 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9393330 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9395139 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9395139 Have HN's tastes changed? Has it simply not been noticed?

kristopolous 12y ago
The whole thing is a dice roll. Have you tried to work the social media sauce? At its most scientific it's still just a game of statistics - until you get "a following"; whatever that is.
- visakanv 12y ago
  I think on HN it depends on how quickly you get a few strong responses. (which can be largely random, less you're super-deliberate about it.) If you want to work the social media sauce, the best way is to get a few people having an actual conversation with you ASAP, through the intended medium you want to seed. Flickr, Reddit, Quora, etc all started out this way. I suppose it's necessary but not necessarily sufficient.
Houshalter 12y ago
Also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1086391 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1086391
tjradcliffe 12y ago
> I see so many job applications that are exactly a laundry list of achievements, and nothing about what the applicant could do for me. There is another side to this, which is that many job ads don't provide anything like enough information for candidates to do that. Most job ads tell us what skills are desired, and a tiny bit about the industry the company works in, and even less about the specific project the candidate would be focused on. It's difficult for me to tell you, "I can bring your galambosian robotics framework to the next level by applying the latest Fibonacci refactoring techniques!" if all I know is "we're a leading-edge company working on bringing killer robots to the masses!" Furthermore, the cover letter will in many cases be screened by an HR wonk who isn't qualified to judge any of that. So the approach of a cover letter that points up specific expertise that may apply to the position is often the best a candidate can do. "My work on galambosian robotics frameworks has definite application to the world of killer robots" is at least as much "pointing out past achievements" as "telling what I can do for you", but without a lot more information than companies are willing to give, it's difficult to make it better. The hiring process is profoundly broken.
- ColinWright 12y ago
  > The hiring process is profoundly broken. That's certainly true, and we agree on that. More, you make good and valid points. Having said that, there is more that candidates can do. They can find out what the company does, for a start. Then if the ad says what skills are required, state clearly that you have the skill and provide evidence. Those two things along will put you ahead of 90% of other applicants. "I work well in groups, but also work well alone." - you and every other applicant will claim that. Provide evidence. Leonardo didn't have a detailed job description to work from, he put in some thought about what his potential employer would want, and then demonstrated that he could provide it. > we're a leading-edge company working on > bringing killer robots to the masses! Then you'll need control systems, real-time software, image analysis, goal-oriented planning systems, etc. Do you have those skills? Say so and provide evidence. You won't know exactly what frameworks they use, but you can demonstrate the ability to move between frameworks taking with you your underlying design and problem solving skills. I agree entirely that the hiring process is broken, but you can get well ahead by being different and relevant. And if your application doesn't get past the HR wonks, is it really somewhere you want to work?
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
B-Con 12y ago
> I see so many job applications that are exactly a laundry list of achievements, and nothing about what the applicant could do for me. Seems like to me that the unspoken implication by a lot of employers in how they conduct the hiring process is that they would rather assess that themselves. The candidate lists what they "are" (which is often done as the sum of their past) and the employer decides whether they are a person who will fit what they need.
anon4 12y ago
I don't understand one thing. Why would HR trust a person who says "I can do X"? Everyone can say that. But not everyone can say "I did X". Is hiring really predicated upon the naivete of those doing it?
- ColinWright 12y ago
  The point is that the "I did X" should be listed specifically to support the statement "I can do Y." Start with what you know or deduce the the prospective employer needs and wants, then demonstrate evidence that you can do it.

pjmlp 12y ago

Thanks for sharing it with us. I wasn't aware of such document from Leonardos's life was available. Quite interesting, specially since history and languages across centuries are some of my interests. Also interesting to wonder how a typical HR department would take such a letter in our time.

speakeron 12y ago
It would be fine as long as you attached your resume as well. (And, of course, given that they were looking for experts in siege warfare).

dalacv 12y ago

Basically, it's a cover letter.

notahacker 12y ago
This. If your actual resume consists mostly or exclusively of theoretical future accomplishments, employers will be justified in wondering whether you've actually successfully done anything. If your cover letter consists mostly of rehashing what you've done in the past rather than what you can do in the specific role, employers will be justified in being sceptical about whether you've actually considered whether you're actually the candidate they need.
- vinceguidry 12y ago
  Leonardo existed in an age where the key players were few and everyone of import knew each other. He didn't have to recite past accomplishments, because all the people he was writing letters to already knew what they were. Had he been an unknown nobody, he'd have had to bring additional context to his appeal for employment just like everyone else.
  - kcovia 12y ago
    Actually, he wrote this employment letter in 1482, before he made anything of serious artistic importance. He may have been somewhat known in the artistic community, but he was by no means very well known.
    - vinceguidry 12y ago
      I mean, here in this age, nobody's going to know who you are as an artist before you make something important. But in the 1400s, just being an artist is a huge enough accomplishment that people are going to know who you are. Also too, what's important to us now is not the same thing as what would have been important to 1400s upper crust society. The main point I'm trying to make is that 1400s Europe was a really small world. So different than the one we find ourselves in that, if you want to take anything at all from Leonardo's cover letter, adopting his language will probably get you much farther than adopting his actual technique, which was devised to fit the needs of the 1400s.

perdunov 12y ago

I am totally writing a resume based on this.

perdunov 12y ago
This type of comments are frowned upon on HN, as they add nothing to the discussion and create noise. So don't make such comments anymore.
- perdunov 12y ago
  Understood.

pibi 12y ago

"Faccio il tifo per te" instead of "Sto tifo per te". Anyhow, thanks for sharing it, I will rewrite my resume based on this approach.

coldcode 12y ago

Of course he didn't have to deal with recruiters who only match on keywords and HR people whose eyes are easily glazed over. Or respond to job ads or emails filled with buzzwords that are required. I too wish I could just write a positive note to the CEO.

joaofranco 12y ago
"Thanks Leo, We are seeking for a junior position, that already have experience with 5 years of Church painting, and 3 years of Mayans/Aztec Arts."

mattip 12y ago

Born April 15, 1452, this week 563 years ago

bikamonki 12y ago

War: the engine of invention.

bayonetz 12y ago

I think Leo is overselling his chariots a little bit. Looks like resume padding never goes out of style. I like how at the very end he says as almost an aside, "I'm pretty good at this art stuff too if think you'd need some of that?"

super-serial 12y ago

So did he get the job? Or was his letter looked over because the Duke's assistant was looking for a technology using "sulfur"... and Da Vinci didn't mention it in his resume.

anon4 12y ago

Apart from all the other points raised, this reads a lot like a list of "I know all these unpatched zero-day exploits in the enemy's engineering".

bshimmin 12y ago

I get the impression he wouldn't bother with LinkedIn.