5 ms·

If you read a follow up email here: https://wikileaks.org/sony/emails/emailid/49813 https://wikileaks.org/sony/emails/emailid/49813 You will be aware of the da

If you read a follow up email here: https://wikileaks.org/sony/emails/emailid/49813 https://wikileaks.org/sony/emails/emailid/49813 You will be aware of the damning evidence. They intended to donate $50k. They are subject to a $5k donation limitation. They are deliberately skirting the law.

cm2187 11y ago
What I don't understand is how is that different from any fund raising effort for a candidate? You look for people who have a reason to support a given candidate (race, religion, profession, etc) and invite them to give them money. How is this a proof of corruption? Yes, the money will come with a message: we like you because you vote xxx on yyy. But I don't see how this is illegal (or even immoral). And I don't see how this is information you couldn't get from public data.
eli 11y ago
Are you saying it's illegal to email coworkers and ask them to donate to a campaign? Or that it should be?
- yellowapple 11y ago
  The email implies a specific intent of soliciting individual donations toward a cause (in this case, a politician) which is directly beneficial to the interests of the organization as a whole. It would be one thing if the emails amounted to "hey, you should donate to this guy because he's a cool dude". That's not the case here, though; it's instead a case of "hey, you should donate to this guy because the company you work for wants to donate $50k but can't because of legal restrictions, and this guy's been really good to us", which - legal or not - is (in my opinion at least) morally deplorable and certainly skirting around the intent of the existing law.
  - eli 11y ago
    Sorry, I'm not really seeing why asking people to donate for one reason is ok but another is morally deplorable. > The email implies a specific intent of soliciting individual donations toward a cause (in this case, a politician) which is directly beneficial to the interests of the organization as a whole. Sure, agreed. Makes sense to me. Why is this "deplorable"? I founded a startup. Is it wrong to email my employees and ask them to support tax breaks for startups? Or to contribute directly to the politicians who implement those tax breaks?
    - fragmede 11y ago
      > I founded a startup. Is it wrong to email my employees and ask them to support tax breaks for startups? It's not wrong, per se, but since you're the founder it does skirts rather close to this statue in the California Labor Code, so be very careful how you word that email. (Many other states have similar laws if you are not in California.) California Labor Code § 1102: No employer shall coerce or influence or attempt to coerce or influence his employees through or by means of threat of discharge or loss of employment to adopt or follow or refrain from adopting or following any particular course or line of political action or political activity.
      - cm2187 11y ago
        In the Sony case, it seems to be an employee inviting the executives to make a donation.
    - yellowapple 11y ago
      > Why is this "deplorable"? Because the intent is to circumvent a limitation imposed by the organization as a whole (Sony) by soliciting from its execs with that listed as the reason to donate bypasses the limits imposed upon organizations to prevent them from subverting the democratic process. It's one thing to convince the execs to donate out of the goodness of their hearts. It's another to ask them to donate for the sole reason of such donations benefiting the company they work for. > Is it wrong to email my employees and ask them to support tax breaks for startups? Or to contribute directly to the politicians who implement those tax breaks? Yes. Your intentions are certainly better, I'm sure, but it's still subverting limitations on the political influence of corporations - limitations that were imposed in order to prevent American democracy from just devolving into "who has the most money and/or shouts the loudest?". Granted, that's already a major problem anyway, but just because factories dump billions of gallons of industrial waste into rivers doesn't make someone any less of a jerk for pouring bleach down a storm drain.
orbitur 11y ago
I'm not sure I understand your point. The email is asking for personal donations from the execs. I can see using Sony's email addresses for these execs as a potential issue, but honestly, the writer of the email could have just used other personal email addresses.
- yellowapple 11y ago
  Personal donations implicitly on behalf of their employer. That's the nuance that's critical to consider here, since the line between "personal" and "corporate" is significantly blurred.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]

cm2187 11y ago

What I don't understand is how is that different from any fund raising effort for a candidate? You look for people who have a reason to support a given candidate (race, religion, profession, etc) and invite them to give them money. How is this a proof of corruption? Yes, the money will come with a message: we like you because you vote xxx on yyy. But I don't see how this is illegal (or even immoral). And I don't see how this is information you couldn't get from public data.

eli 11y ago

Are you saying it's illegal to email coworkers and ask them to donate to a campaign? Or that it should be?

yellowapple 11y ago
The email implies a specific intent of soliciting individual donations toward a cause (in this case, a politician) which is directly beneficial to the interests of the organization as a whole. It would be one thing if the emails amounted to "hey, you should donate to this guy because he's a cool dude". That's not the case here, though; it's instead a case of "hey, you should donate to this guy because the company you work for wants to donate $50k but can't because of legal restrictions, and this guy's been really good to us", which - legal or not - is (in my opinion at least) morally deplorable and certainly skirting around the intent of the existing law.
- eli 11y ago
  Sorry, I'm not really seeing why asking people to donate for one reason is ok but another is morally deplorable. > The email implies a specific intent of soliciting individual donations toward a cause (in this case, a politician) which is directly beneficial to the interests of the organization as a whole. Sure, agreed. Makes sense to me. Why is this "deplorable"? I founded a startup. Is it wrong to email my employees and ask them to support tax breaks for startups? Or to contribute directly to the politicians who implement those tax breaks?
  - fragmede 11y ago
    > I founded a startup. Is it wrong to email my employees and ask them to support tax breaks for startups? It's not wrong, per se, but since you're the founder it does skirts rather close to this statue in the California Labor Code, so be very careful how you word that email. (Many other states have similar laws if you are not in California.) California Labor Code § 1102: No employer shall coerce or influence or attempt to coerce or influence his employees through or by means of threat of discharge or loss of employment to adopt or follow or refrain from adopting or following any particular course or line of political action or political activity.
    - cm2187 11y ago
      In the Sony case, it seems to be an employee inviting the executives to make a donation.
  - yellowapple 11y ago
    > Why is this "deplorable"? Because the intent is to circumvent a limitation imposed by the organization as a whole (Sony) by soliciting from its execs with that listed as the reason to donate bypasses the limits imposed upon organizations to prevent them from subverting the democratic process. It's one thing to convince the execs to donate out of the goodness of their hearts. It's another to ask them to donate for the sole reason of such donations benefiting the company they work for. > Is it wrong to email my employees and ask them to support tax breaks for startups? Or to contribute directly to the politicians who implement those tax breaks? Yes. Your intentions are certainly better, I'm sure, but it's still subverting limitations on the political influence of corporations - limitations that were imposed in order to prevent American democracy from just devolving into "who has the most money and/or shouts the loudest?". Granted, that's already a major problem anyway, but just because factories dump billions of gallons of industrial waste into rivers doesn't make someone any less of a jerk for pouring bleach down a storm drain.

orbitur 11y ago

I'm not sure I understand your point. The email is asking for personal donations from the execs. I can see using Sony's email addresses for these execs as a potential issue, but honestly, the writer of the email could have just used other personal email addresses.

yellowapple 11y ago
Personal donations implicitly on behalf of their employer. That's the nuance that's critical to consider here, since the line between "personal" and "corporate" is significantly blurred.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]