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The article points out some aspects that make this a not so great analogy - in particular, companies like Uber set the rates, and put the burden of costs on the

by Bahamut 12y ago

The article points out some aspects that make this a not so great analogy - in particular, companies like Uber set the rates, and put the burden of costs on the workers for stuff like gas, wear and tear, etc. Uber in particular is taking half of the tips according to the article, which sounds unethical. My only opinion on this is that the balance should probably be tilted a little more in the workers' favor for these arrangements, although I am not sure full categorization as an employee would be the correct approach.

greggyb 12y ago
>The article points out some aspects that make this a not so great analogy - in particular, companies like Uber set the rates, and put the burden of costs on the workers for stuff like gas, wear and tear, etc. Uber in particular is taking half of the tips according to the article, which sounds unethical. These are very good points and I am glad you brought them up. I think the rates and tips are very valid concerns here, but categorically different from one another. I think that offloading costs to drivers still fits the eBay analogy, though it is certainly weaker. A seller must store goods, prepare them for shipping, and in many cases add value to the product in some way (e.g. refurbishing is common, which includes cost for all related equipment). Again, not a perfect analogy, but offloading costs to the seller/driver seems to bear some resemblance between the two. Setting the rates is a strong argument in favor of a relationship more toward the traditional employee end of the spectrum. I think I need to think about this more. As to the tips, I glossed over that section so I am glad you've raised it here. I do not know the exact details of the agreement between Uber and drivers as regards tips, but this seems at first glance to be a pretty severe violation of any relationship between driver and Uber. I agree this needs to be addressed, and a class-action suit does seem appropriate here. I think this can and should be viewed independently from any classification as partner/employee. >My only opinion on this is that the balance should probably be tilted a little more in the workers' favor for these arrangements, although I am not sure full categorization as an employee would be the correct approach. I think you're right on this point. I am still unsure as to what I think is best to achieve this. My initial reaction is to ensure that there is an environment where competitors are likely; I believe a strict requirement on the type of relationship between company and driver will only hamper this (limit the type of relationships => limit the viable business models => limit the possible solution space).
- SomeStupidPoint 12y ago
  I think the real point of challenging Uber is this: they can either set the rates or they can push the cost of materials on to drivers, but they can't do both. That is, they must either embrace the full employee or full contractor package, and not just take the parts they like of each with none of the liabilities.
  - greggyb 12y ago
    Do you think that it is really that binary? I think that this quote from the article is apt: >U.S. District Judge Vince Chhabria, who is overseeing the Lyft case, said that existing labor law doesn’t map well with these companies’ business models. Lyft drivers don’t seem exactly like employees or independent contractors, he wrote in his motion. “The jury in this case will be handed a square peg and asked to choose between two round holes,” Just because we have two clearly delineated buckets to drop people into doesn't mean that these accurately describe those individuals.
    - SomeStupidPoint 12y ago
      Running a business that relies on questionable legal intrepretations doesn't necessarily have to be something we support. That Uber set themselves up in such a way that they can't relate to their workers in a clearly legal way is suspicious -- which is exactly the accusation: they're dodging liabilities they should have by making up their own kind of square peg.
eric_h 12y ago
> Uber in particular is taking half of the tips according to the article, which sounds unethical. I don't really understand this - I've never tipped an uber driver, their interface doesn't even support it. What are they talking about?
- throwaway39201 12y ago
  I was wondering the same thing -- I've tipped a few times but it's always been a couple bucks cash since I've never seen any option for it in the interface. Maybe there used to be a way to tip from the app that they've since removed due to such complaints?

by Bahamut 12y ago

greggyb 12y ago

>The article points out some aspects that make this a not so great analogy - in particular, companies like Uber set the rates, and put the burden of costs on the workers for stuff like gas, wear and tear, etc. Uber in particular is taking half of the tips according to the article, which sounds unethical. These are very good points and I am glad you brought them up. I think the rates and tips are very valid concerns here, but categorically different from one another. I think that offloading costs to drivers still fits the eBay analogy, though it is certainly weaker. A seller must store goods, prepare them for shipping, and in many cases add value to the product in some way (e.g. refurbishing is common, which includes cost for all related equipment). Again, not a perfect analogy, but offloading costs to the seller/driver seems to bear some resemblance between the two. Setting the rates is a strong argument in favor of a relationship more toward the traditional employee end of the spectrum. I think I need to think about this more. As to the tips, I glossed over that section so I am glad you've raised it here. I do not know the exact details of the agreement between Uber and drivers as regards tips, but this seems at first glance to be a pretty severe violation of any relationship between driver and Uber. I agree this needs to be addressed, and a class-action suit does seem appropriate here. I think this can and should be viewed independently from any classification as partner/employee. >My only opinion on this is that the balance should probably be tilted a little more in the workers' favor for these arrangements, although I am not sure full categorization as an employee would be the correct approach. I think you're right on this point. I am still unsure as to what I think is best to achieve this. My initial reaction is to ensure that there is an environment where competitors are likely; I believe a strict requirement on the type of relationship between company and driver will only hamper this (limit the type of relationships => limit the viable business models => limit the possible solution space).

SomeStupidPoint 12y ago
I think the real point of challenging Uber is this: they can either set the rates or they can push the cost of materials on to drivers, but they can't do both. That is, they must either embrace the full employee or full contractor package, and not just take the parts they like of each with none of the liabilities.
- greggyb 12y ago
  Do you think that it is really that binary? I think that this quote from the article is apt: >U.S. District Judge Vince Chhabria, who is overseeing the Lyft case, said that existing labor law doesn’t map well with these companies’ business models. Lyft drivers don’t seem exactly like employees or independent contractors, he wrote in his motion. “The jury in this case will be handed a square peg and asked to choose between two round holes,” Just because we have two clearly delineated buckets to drop people into doesn't mean that these accurately describe those individuals.
  - SomeStupidPoint 12y ago
    Running a business that relies on questionable legal intrepretations doesn't necessarily have to be something we support. That Uber set themselves up in such a way that they can't relate to their workers in a clearly legal way is suspicious -- which is exactly the accusation: they're dodging liabilities they should have by making up their own kind of square peg.

eric_h 12y ago

> Uber in particular is taking half of the tips according to the article, which sounds unethical. I don't really understand this - I've never tipped an uber driver, their interface doesn't even support it. What are they talking about?

throwaway39201 12y ago
I was wondering the same thing -- I've tipped a few times but it's always been a couple bucks cash since I've never seen any option for it in the interface. Maybe there used to be a way to tip from the app that they've since removed due to such complaints?