5 ms·

I'm not sure how other tech individuals feel about these issues, but with the accounts of mass public shaming by everyone against perceived injustices and their

by saboot 12y ago

I'm not sure how other tech individuals feel about these issues, but with the accounts of mass public shaming by everyone against perceived injustices and their supporters I feel like the best thing for myself is to say and do nothing at all. Until the tone of the discussion changes I think many people will continue to feel this way as well

return0 12y ago
Say nothing, do as your conscience tells you.
zxcvcxz 12y ago
That's exactly what they want you to do. Don't try to form any sort of counter argument against them or you'll immediately be painted as a racist, bigoted, misogynist. And if you use your real name they'll attempt ruin your career and destroy your life.
koralatov 12y ago
I nearly always just keep my mouth shut because I know that I can be shot down and 'discredited' purely because I'm white, male, and straight. Part of it is perhaps age (I'm 31 now, and less angry/opinionated than I once was), but it's mostly just that I have, in the past, been repeatedly disregarded or outright abused because of who I am rather than what I'm saying. That kind of response is fundamentally censorious, and it has worked; I'm effectively self-censoring now to comply with the wishes/intentions of this lunatic fringe. From your comment, I get the impression you're doing the same. The scary outcome of that is a continued chokehold on the narrative and conversation by these extreme fringes, and no change for the better because nobody is willing or able to engage in a reasonable discussion or take reasonable action.
- bonesmoses 12y ago
  Which, to me, raises an interesting question: If someone can direct the wrath of the lunatic fringe at you with utmost impunity, can it really be claimed that they have no voice? Because they're claiming they don't, while still exercising that exclusive privilege.
  - classicsnoot 12y ago
    Agreed. I don't know why, but your post reminds me of the part of Cryptonomicon where the intellectuals sit around the table and nod incessantly as their Academic Prince derides the Internet because of who created it. The privileged academics who benefit from a very expensive education speaking ill of the privileged and expensive Internet infrastructure.
wpietri 12y ago
I think that's a good response, but I'd suggest adding some listening and learning to it. The Internet is accelerating some important cultural changes. For example, look at the speed with which gay rights have happened, and how quickly society changed. In my view, that's because the Internet has drastically increased the ability of people with minority viewpoints to be heard. What does that feel like for somebody with the old opinions? It has to be hard. For their whole lives, something they didn't like was actively hidden from them out of fear. They just never had to accept that gay people were real humans. So now they have a whole reservoir of views and habits and comments that are no longer appropriate. Many surely feel uncomfortable enough that they just shut up in public. And I think that's fine. Their views and habits and comments were part of the social structure that oppressed gay people. Nobody wants to hear them anymore. I think it's best for everybody if they say nothing in public. They should instead take some time listening to the gay people whose voices they previously ignored. To the extent that they need help working through their opinions, they should do that privately, with people already sympathetic to them, rather than demanding that the world help them process things.
- saboot 12y ago
  I don't agree with the sentiment that those who are afraid of speaking up are supporting bigotry or inequality. I hope my comment doesn't imply that I would support those things, or belong to those with 'the old opinions'.
  - wpietri 12y ago
    I'm sure you don't want to support those things. I don't either. But I expect we both accidentally do. Let's look at the previous example to gay marriage, interracial marriage: http://www.gallup.com/poll/149390/record-high-approve-black-white-marriages.aspx http://www.gallup.com/poll/149390/record-high-approve-black-... For a long time, it was the near-universal opinion that it was wrong. Now it's the near-universal opinion that it is fine. When opposition was the dominant opinion, nobody thought that was supporting bigotry and inequality. Then there was a long period where one side believed it was bigotry and one side didn't. Now everybody sees it as bigotry. For a long time, opponents of interracial marriage were comfortable sharing their views. Supporters were afraid of speaking up. Eventually supporters started speaking up energetically. Opponents did the same: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Little_Rock_integration_protest.jpg http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Little_Rock_integrati... Eventually, the tide turned. Opponents generally didn't lose their opinions, but they became afraid to speak up because of possible social consequences. And eventually a generation grew up that doesn't even question the topic. Why does this matter? Well, either A) all racism, sexism, etc, have now been eliminated from society in this manner, or B) most of us harbor some bigoted, erroneous views that we haven't collectively recognized as wrong. I believe it's the latter. That's certainly been my personal experience as I've come to learn about these topics.
evincarofautumn 12y ago
In terms of the amount of good you can do in the world, it is probably better to be vocally moderate, and staunchly so, rather than silently moderate.

by saboot 12y ago

return0 12y ago

Say nothing, do as your conscience tells you.

zxcvcxz 12y ago

That's exactly what they want you to do. Don't try to form any sort of counter argument against them or you'll immediately be painted as a racist, bigoted, misogynist. And if you use your real name they'll attempt ruin your career and destroy your life.

koralatov 12y ago

I nearly always just keep my mouth shut because I know that I can be shot down and 'discredited' purely because I'm white, male, and straight. Part of it is perhaps age (I'm 31 now, and less angry/opinionated than I once was), but it's mostly just that I have, in the past, been repeatedly disregarded or outright abused because of who I am rather than what I'm saying. That kind of response is fundamentally censorious, and it has worked; I'm effectively self-censoring now to comply with the wishes/intentions of this lunatic fringe. From your comment, I get the impression you're doing the same. The scary outcome of that is a continued chokehold on the narrative and conversation by these extreme fringes, and no change for the better because nobody is willing or able to engage in a reasonable discussion or take reasonable action.

bonesmoses 12y ago
Which, to me, raises an interesting question: If someone can direct the wrath of the lunatic fringe at you with utmost impunity, can it really be claimed that they have no voice? Because they're claiming they don't, while still exercising that exclusive privilege.
- classicsnoot 12y ago
  Agreed. I don't know why, but your post reminds me of the part of Cryptonomicon where the intellectuals sit around the table and nod incessantly as their Academic Prince derides the Internet because of who created it. The privileged academics who benefit from a very expensive education speaking ill of the privileged and expensive Internet infrastructure.

wpietri 12y ago

I think that's a good response, but I'd suggest adding some listening and learning to it. The Internet is accelerating some important cultural changes. For example, look at the speed with which gay rights have happened, and how quickly society changed. In my view, that's because the Internet has drastically increased the ability of people with minority viewpoints to be heard. What does that feel like for somebody with the old opinions? It has to be hard. For their whole lives, something they didn't like was actively hidden from them out of fear. They just never had to accept that gay people were real humans. So now they have a whole reservoir of views and habits and comments that are no longer appropriate. Many surely feel uncomfortable enough that they just shut up in public. And I think that's fine. Their views and habits and comments were part of the social structure that oppressed gay people. Nobody wants to hear them anymore. I think it's best for everybody if they say nothing in public. They should instead take some time listening to the gay people whose voices they previously ignored. To the extent that they need help working through their opinions, they should do that privately, with people already sympathetic to them, rather than demanding that the world help them process things.

saboot 12y ago
I don't agree with the sentiment that those who are afraid of speaking up are supporting bigotry or inequality. I hope my comment doesn't imply that I would support those things, or belong to those with 'the old opinions'.
- wpietri 12y ago
  I'm sure you don't want to support those things. I don't either. But I expect we both accidentally do. Let's look at the previous example to gay marriage, interracial marriage: http://www.gallup.com/poll/149390/record-high-approve-black-white-marriages.aspx http://www.gallup.com/poll/149390/record-high-approve-black-... For a long time, it was the near-universal opinion that it was wrong. Now it's the near-universal opinion that it is fine. When opposition was the dominant opinion, nobody thought that was supporting bigotry and inequality. Then there was a long period where one side believed it was bigotry and one side didn't. Now everybody sees it as bigotry. For a long time, opponents of interracial marriage were comfortable sharing their views. Supporters were afraid of speaking up. Eventually supporters started speaking up energetically. Opponents did the same: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Little_Rock_integration_protest.jpg http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Little_Rock_integrati... Eventually, the tide turned. Opponents generally didn't lose their opinions, but they became afraid to speak up because of possible social consequences. And eventually a generation grew up that doesn't even question the topic. Why does this matter? Well, either A) all racism, sexism, etc, have now been eliminated from society in this manner, or B) most of us harbor some bigoted, erroneous views that we haven't collectively recognized as wrong. I believe it's the latter. That's certainly been my personal experience as I've come to learn about these topics.

evincarofautumn 12y ago

In terms of the amount of good you can do in the world, it is probably better to be vocally moderate, and staunchly so, rather than silently moderate.