4 ms·

Luckily in most other developed western countries it carries no prestige to be part of the army outside of certain low income / right wing / uneducated circles.

Luckily in most other developed western countries it carries no prestige to be part of the army outside of certain low income / right wing / uneducated circles. To the point where the majority of university students would never consider dating someone who went to the army. While there was still conscription, if you didn't chose to do alternative civil service, you were in the minority and considered suspect.

gaius 12y ago
To the point where the majority of university students would never consider dating someone who went to the army But they would never consider dating street sweepers or shop workers or manual labourers either, or anyone else they see as beneath their social status as "university students", despite relying on those people every single day of their lives. It's pure class snobbery, and this is why many people hold "students" in contempt. Fortunately most grow out of it when they graduate.
- saiya-jin 12y ago
  now sir, you got this one wrong. for intellectually based people (let's assume most college people are), dating with somebody you don't have that much to say is meaningless and frustrating experience. same goes for (most) guys too.
  - gaius 12y ago
    If that is the point the OP is trying to make, then why single out the military? And all that nonsense about the "right wing" (clue: militarism is equally distributed throughout the political spectrum).
    - orbifold 12y ago
      Well I'm speaking of the political spectrum in the German army "http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article109241172/Weltbild-deutscher-Soldaten-nicht-unproblematisch.html" http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article109241172/Welt.... According to the linked article 70% are close to the CDU, which can be considered right wing, 14 % have extreme right views. I'm pretty sure similar things could be said about other armies in Europe. Since the American political spectrum is skewed so far to the right, that it's ridiculous it might be true that American soldiers have views more representative of the population.
  - Rapzid 12y ago
    I'm not really sure what this has to do with street sweepers, shop workers, manual labourers, or military personnel? Would you care to elaborate?
  - Retric 12y ago
    The military attracts plenty of geniuses just like any other large organization. Simply by not admitting the least capable the Army ends up significantly higher IQ than the average high school. Meanwhile 39% of 18- to 24-year-olds and 65.9 of those who graduate high school were enrolled in college, so it's not all that selective. PS: Yes, this means that large numbers of smart people don't think the way you do.
donny554 12y ago
Saying this applies to most developed countries is a big claim. My own personal experience in the few European countries is the opposite, that being in the military was great for picking up girls. Obviously your own experience differs, but you must be careful in applying that to an entire continent. Not to mention the absurdity of university students looking down on soldiers, many (almost all in my unit) of whom will hold degrees themselves.
- TeMPOraL 12y ago
  > My own personal experience in the few European countries is the opposite, that being in the military was great for picking up girls. As the popular proverb in Poland goes, "za mundurem panny sznurem" - "girls queue up behind an uniform[ed guy; follow him]".
arethuza 12y ago
I wouldn't say that about the UK - perhaps because military leadership has traditionally been so closely aligned with our social classes (i.e. if you are posh and go to a public school then you are officer material). A lot of private (what we call "public") schools have Army/Air-Force cadet groups which are supported by the real armed forces and often have ex-forces staff working in the school.
- orbifold 12y ago
  There is a good chance my view is heavily biased, obviously at one point in every European country the military was held in high regard, regardless of class. My perception is that at least in Germany being an officer is no longer something most young people would aspire to or even consider as a career path. Nor is volunteering for the army considered a particularly attractive option. Obviously other countries might have larger success in indoctrinating the young, US propaganda and Hollywood certainly do a good job at glorifying their military.
happyscrappy 12y ago
If the US were just like Euroweenies there would be no Europe.
- orbifold 12y ago
  You have a very poor grasp of history if you mistake the lessons learned out of two brutal world wars, not to mention the senseless history of violence that preceded it, with some kind of cowardice. Your viewpoint can probably be traced back to some notion of Anglo-Saxon supremacy, that by now has lost its racial undertones and lives on as the idea of American exceptionalism: That somehow the US is a gift to the world and not a country like any other. The US is just such a young country that it simply either hasn't learned the lesson, or that any kind of political dissent is dissipated or ineffective. Personally I take humility over pride any time of the day.
  - happyscrappy 12y ago
    It is easy to bash the US and is par for the course on HN but Europeans don't have to believe in Pax Americana to benefit from it. Do you think Poland would be able to relax if their defense was solely by Europeans?
  - eli_gottlieb 12y ago
    I'm as against American imperialism and militarism as anyone, but the EU simply has severe problems when taken as a self-defending military power. Namely: most EU countries are not up-to-date on their budget, equipment, and soldier contributions to the CSDP and NATO. This means that most of keeping Europe militarily stable - despite bordering Russia, the Middle East, and North Africa - falls to the American forces. Meanwhile, Americans are kept in poverty to fund the military force that lets Europe and Japan be generous to their citizens. How just can that be?
Nimitz14 12y ago
That's not true.

gaius 12y ago

To the point where the majority of university students would never consider dating someone who went to the army But they would never consider dating street sweepers or shop workers or manual labourers either, or anyone else they see as beneath their social status as "university students", despite relying on those people every single day of their lives. It's pure class snobbery, and this is why many people hold "students" in contempt. Fortunately most grow out of it when they graduate.

saiya-jin 12y ago
now sir, you got this one wrong. for intellectually based people (let's assume most college people are), dating with somebody you don't have that much to say is meaningless and frustrating experience. same goes for (most) guys too.
- gaius 12y ago
  If that is the point the OP is trying to make, then why single out the military? And all that nonsense about the "right wing" (clue: militarism is equally distributed throughout the political spectrum).
  - orbifold 12y ago
    Well I'm speaking of the political spectrum in the German army "http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article109241172/Weltbild-deutscher-Soldaten-nicht-unproblematisch.html" http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article109241172/Welt.... According to the linked article 70% are close to the CDU, which can be considered right wing, 14 % have extreme right views. I'm pretty sure similar things could be said about other armies in Europe. Since the American political spectrum is skewed so far to the right, that it's ridiculous it might be true that American soldiers have views more representative of the population.
- Rapzid 12y ago
  I'm not really sure what this has to do with street sweepers, shop workers, manual labourers, or military personnel? Would you care to elaborate?
- Retric 12y ago
  The military attracts plenty of geniuses just like any other large organization. Simply by not admitting the least capable the Army ends up significantly higher IQ than the average high school. Meanwhile 39% of 18- to 24-year-olds and 65.9 of those who graduate high school were enrolled in college, so it's not all that selective. PS: Yes, this means that large numbers of smart people don't think the way you do.

donny554 12y ago

Saying this applies to most developed countries is a big claim. My own personal experience in the few European countries is the opposite, that being in the military was great for picking up girls. Obviously your own experience differs, but you must be careful in applying that to an entire continent. Not to mention the absurdity of university students looking down on soldiers, many (almost all in my unit) of whom will hold degrees themselves.

TeMPOraL 12y ago
> My own personal experience in the few European countries is the opposite, that being in the military was great for picking up girls. As the popular proverb in Poland goes, "za mundurem panny sznurem" - "girls queue up behind an uniform[ed guy; follow him]".

arethuza 12y ago

I wouldn't say that about the UK - perhaps because military leadership has traditionally been so closely aligned with our social classes (i.e. if you are posh and go to a public school then you are officer material). A lot of private (what we call "public") schools have Army/Air-Force cadet groups which are supported by the real armed forces and often have ex-forces staff working in the school.

orbifold 12y ago
There is a good chance my view is heavily biased, obviously at one point in every European country the military was held in high regard, regardless of class. My perception is that at least in Germany being an officer is no longer something most young people would aspire to or even consider as a career path. Nor is volunteering for the army considered a particularly attractive option. Obviously other countries might have larger success in indoctrinating the young, US propaganda and Hollywood certainly do a good job at glorifying their military.

happyscrappy 12y ago

If the US were just like Euroweenies there would be no Europe.

orbifold 12y ago
You have a very poor grasp of history if you mistake the lessons learned out of two brutal world wars, not to mention the senseless history of violence that preceded it, with some kind of cowardice. Your viewpoint can probably be traced back to some notion of Anglo-Saxon supremacy, that by now has lost its racial undertones and lives on as the idea of American exceptionalism: That somehow the US is a gift to the world and not a country like any other. The US is just such a young country that it simply either hasn't learned the lesson, or that any kind of political dissent is dissipated or ineffective. Personally I take humility over pride any time of the day.
- happyscrappy 12y ago
  It is easy to bash the US and is par for the course on HN but Europeans don't have to believe in Pax Americana to benefit from it. Do you think Poland would be able to relax if their defense was solely by Europeans?
- eli_gottlieb 12y ago
  I'm as against American imperialism and militarism as anyone, but the EU simply has severe problems when taken as a self-defending military power. Namely: most EU countries are not up-to-date on their budget, equipment, and soldier contributions to the CSDP and NATO. This means that most of keeping Europe militarily stable - despite bordering Russia, the Middle East, and North Africa - falls to the American forces. Meanwhile, Americans are kept in poverty to fund the military force that lets Europe and Japan be generous to their citizens. How just can that be?

Nimitz14 12y ago

That's not true.