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If someone joins during a war, I agree, they are usually doing that of their own accord, modulo a few people who maybe felt they had no other economic/etc. choi

If someone joins during a war, I agree, they are usually doing that of their own accord, modulo a few people who maybe felt they had no other economic/etc. choice. But that's not that many people, which is why the U.S. military started having recruiting problems after they launched the Iraq and Afghanistan wars: many people who had previously signed up now regretted it, and the supply of new volunteers dwindled. My own experience with classmates is quite different, but it sounds like it's a few years prior, so it might already be out of date. Around when my friends and I graduated high school (~1999-2000) the military was seen as a reasonable career path with a primarily deterrent and strategic role, and a fairly low chance of offensive deployment. And the reserves were seen as a last-ditch force that would effectively only be called up if the U.S. or a NATO ally were invaded. Many of my classmates who entered around then signed on for this mission, and didn't agree with subsequent decisions made by the political branches to change their role. The "stop-loss orders" of 2002–03, in which they were not allowed to discharge at their originally agreed discharge date, and the calling up of the reserves for something that did not really fit the prior understanding of how reserves would be used (both done as desperate measures to make up for volunteer numbers absolutely tanking), were particularly unpopular, and at that point many no longer felt like they were still volunteers. I feel myself like I dodged a bullet by not going that path (I had talked to a recruiter in 1999, who painted a fairly appealing story about technical careers in the military).

67726e 12y ago
We certainly have a time difference, I was born in '93, so we all came of age throughout the war, and by the time we graduated (2011) and could enlist, the war had raged and begun to wane. The cards had fallen, and anyone with half a brain could look at the facts for what had happened. My view of the US, by that point, had morphed from that of a patriot to that of a dissident. Given the NSA revelations, I could almost say I have a hatred for our government, but the military seems to represents something else. To this day I feel bad for those who fought in Iraq (2003), because I think many (most?) were duped. Yet that urge remains. Perhaps the years of recruitment tools disguised as video games and the notion of the "warrior" were just far too ingrained in my head, but I entered high school (in fact, I started in middle school in a pre-JROTC program to get a head start over the others) dove head first into the NJROTC program with the intent to get a head start on enlistment. I ate that shit up! Ultimately, after a series of (un)fortunate events, I walked out of high school with a jaded outlook and a full-ride scholarship, so enlistment wasn't in the cards. I don't quite know just what it is that keeps enticing me, maybe it's a desire for a fresh start, maybe I'm a bloodthirsty baby-killer, or maybe it's biological. It's probably a mix of many things, but I can't help but think there is a desire to prove oneself as a man. I'm very introspective, but I just cannot put my finger on what it is.
- _delirium 12y ago
  That makes sense. I think in the '90s there was more of a difference in how people thought of "the military" overall, vs. the special forces specifically, which is where you'd get the dropping-in-somewhere-from-a-helicopter-and-shooting type action. The special forces were definitely a fascination for many, but I think more of some kind of theoretical fascination. I'm not sure I know anyone who seriously pursued it, in part because it seemed pretty unlikely as a career path, like becoming a "black bag" style CIA spy or something. More of kind of an idle fantasy than a serious source of indecision. (Obviously some people did, since special forces existed.) The ones interested in the "regular" military I remember thinking of it as more like a kind of adult boy scouts: a good place to develop some self-discipline, physical fitness, ability to work closely with teammates, etc., and maybe gain useful skills depending on your specialty. All the while doing some kind of vaguely patriotic duty deterring China simply by existing and maintaining/flexing some advanced technology. But going to an actual hot shooting war wasn't really the goal. The idea was to do your tour of duty, get honorably discharged, and then either get a job, or go to college on the GI bill. Either way a military tour probably would look good on the resume. Some people also had more specific interests, usually having something to do with technology (but maybe this is because of who my friends were), e.g. if you want to work on nuclear-powered ships or advanced jets, the military is where they are. The recruiters really played up the tech angle when visiting my high school, almost downplaying the "military" aspects. I guess they have probably changed their pitch in the intervening years...
  - 67726e 12y ago
    I think that hits the nail pretty well. The handful of older adults I know who went into the service did it for those exact reasons, wanted to fly, wanted to go to college on the GI bill, wanted to become a surgeon but couldn't afford medical school, etc. I think part of this modern situation, is that the armed services have done an amazing PR job in the past decade and a half. We've gone from the notion of a citizen soldier to this warrior notion. You're no longer doing your duty, conscripted and fighting an evil empire. You're joining up to be a warrior! Something that just came into my head is that, out of my male friends, all but a two went Army/Marines with one going Air Force and the other going Navy, and my male friend who went Navy wanted to be (and is) a dental tech. A cursory check of Facebook confirms this, and interestingly, of the women I know from school who went into the service, all but one went Navy (the odd woman out went Marines). I think that notion of "Adult Scouts" and a stepping stone still applies to the Navy, Coast Guard, and Air Force to large part, no airmen or sailor is doing night raids in an Afghan village, you might get someone aiming for a Corpsman or a forward observer, and of course SEALs or Pararescue, but those are a small part of those branches.
Lorento 12y ago
It's a pity that this cycle repeats itself so often. "The army is cool, they fight wars. My army won't fight but I'll still get to feel cool.". My dad fell into this trap too and got stuck going through a war. But ultimately it really is their own fault. They did agree to kill people if told to, and they did lock themselves into being unable to quit even if the situation changed. They also wanted to get the feeling of being associated with the other killers in the army, which they got. So I don't think signing up in a brief moment of peacetime excuses any soldiers of their immoral actions.

67726e 12y ago

We certainly have a time difference, I was born in '93, so we all came of age throughout the war, and by the time we graduated (2011) and could enlist, the war had raged and begun to wane. The cards had fallen, and anyone with half a brain could look at the facts for what had happened. My view of the US, by that point, had morphed from that of a patriot to that of a dissident. Given the NSA revelations, I could almost say I have a hatred for our government, but the military seems to represents something else. To this day I feel bad for those who fought in Iraq (2003), because I think many (most?) were duped. Yet that urge remains. Perhaps the years of recruitment tools disguised as video games and the notion of the "warrior" were just far too ingrained in my head, but I entered high school (in fact, I started in middle school in a pre-JROTC program to get a head start over the others) dove head first into the NJROTC program with the intent to get a head start on enlistment. I ate that shit up! Ultimately, after a series of (un)fortunate events, I walked out of high school with a jaded outlook and a full-ride scholarship, so enlistment wasn't in the cards. I don't quite know just what it is that keeps enticing me, maybe it's a desire for a fresh start, maybe I'm a bloodthirsty baby-killer, or maybe it's biological. It's probably a mix of many things, but I can't help but think there is a desire to prove oneself as a man. I'm very introspective, but I just cannot put my finger on what it is.

_delirium 12y ago
That makes sense. I think in the '90s there was more of a difference in how people thought of "the military" overall, vs. the special forces specifically, which is where you'd get the dropping-in-somewhere-from-a-helicopter-and-shooting type action. The special forces were definitely a fascination for many, but I think more of some kind of theoretical fascination. I'm not sure I know anyone who seriously pursued it, in part because it seemed pretty unlikely as a career path, like becoming a "black bag" style CIA spy or something. More of kind of an idle fantasy than a serious source of indecision. (Obviously some people did, since special forces existed.) The ones interested in the "regular" military I remember thinking of it as more like a kind of adult boy scouts: a good place to develop some self-discipline, physical fitness, ability to work closely with teammates, etc., and maybe gain useful skills depending on your specialty. All the while doing some kind of vaguely patriotic duty deterring China simply by existing and maintaining/flexing some advanced technology. But going to an actual hot shooting war wasn't really the goal. The idea was to do your tour of duty, get honorably discharged, and then either get a job, or go to college on the GI bill. Either way a military tour probably would look good on the resume. Some people also had more specific interests, usually having something to do with technology (but maybe this is because of who my friends were), e.g. if you want to work on nuclear-powered ships or advanced jets, the military is where they are. The recruiters really played up the tech angle when visiting my high school, almost downplaying the "military" aspects. I guess they have probably changed their pitch in the intervening years...
- 67726e 12y ago
  I think that hits the nail pretty well. The handful of older adults I know who went into the service did it for those exact reasons, wanted to fly, wanted to go to college on the GI bill, wanted to become a surgeon but couldn't afford medical school, etc. I think part of this modern situation, is that the armed services have done an amazing PR job in the past decade and a half. We've gone from the notion of a citizen soldier to this warrior notion. You're no longer doing your duty, conscripted and fighting an evil empire. You're joining up to be a warrior! Something that just came into my head is that, out of my male friends, all but a two went Army/Marines with one going Air Force and the other going Navy, and my male friend who went Navy wanted to be (and is) a dental tech. A cursory check of Facebook confirms this, and interestingly, of the women I know from school who went into the service, all but one went Navy (the odd woman out went Marines). I think that notion of "Adult Scouts" and a stepping stone still applies to the Navy, Coast Guard, and Air Force to large part, no airmen or sailor is doing night raids in an Afghan village, you might get someone aiming for a Corpsman or a forward observer, and of course SEALs or Pararescue, but those are a small part of those branches.

Lorento 12y ago

It's a pity that this cycle repeats itself so often. "The army is cool, they fight wars. My army won't fight but I'll still get to feel cool.". My dad fell into this trap too and got stuck going through a war. But ultimately it really is their own fault. They did agree to kill people if told to, and they did lock themselves into being unable to quit even if the situation changed. They also wanted to get the feeling of being associated with the other killers in the army, which they got. So I don't think signing up in a brief moment of peacetime excuses any soldiers of their immoral actions.