5 ms·

Why is it callous? Why get in the army in the first place, if not to do the work of the army? I'd be hypocritical to join the army with the desire to then avoid

Why is it callous? Why get in the army in the first place, if not to do the work of the army? I'd be hypocritical to join the army with the desire to then avoid operations. I can understand that people be against war. I don't like violence. I don't encourage violence and certainly do not enjoy wars. But wars exist and as a citizen, you can decide to wish that war magically weren't a thing, or do something about their existence. I did not encourage the concept of war by taking part in it, no more than I encourage system outages when I take part in building or fixing them. War is not just war. It's not "just going somewhere to kill people". I didn't decide "Oh all that sweat wasted, better kill foreigners to make up for it". I volunteered because I thought I could make a positive influence, if any, by being a reasonable person doing their job in the most humane way I could. Not every soldier is an angry, bloodthirsty, moronic killer. Most of them aren't. I don't wish to kill an innocent person anymore than you do. I don't wish to kill a guilty person either. But sometimes, participating in a war, or killing a person, is the only way to make the war less harmful, or prevent that person from killing many more. Avoiding wars at all cost is not a magic bullet against wars. That's my take on it, I might be wrong.

lukifer 12y ago
As Sun Tzu said, the greatest warrior is the one who need never fight. While this can be interpreted as a pacifist/moral sentiment, it is really deeply practical: fighting incurs risks and resources, even if victorious. The most effective victories come from a credible deterrent which is never actually used. So I don't think your training would have been wasted by not seeing combat, any more than a policeman's weapon is wasted even if it is never fired.
- pluma 12y ago
  If only US policemen listened more closely to Sun Tzu.
BuckRogers 12y ago
You sound like a good person to me, but I do think you're wrong. It would be very hard for you to not see things the way you've described them, without going crazy at least. It may be best to reject others' opinions, considering what you've done. Just to maintain that sanity. We all lie to ourselves for many things in our lives to maintain sanity. I'm not saying this in any way to be a slight towards you. I personally think the current wars are actually abusive to those who join. Just because someone signs up to -defend- the nation, doesn't mean the political elite has a right to abuse those people. Since I think the wars are unjust, illegal and doing more harm overall than good. I'd never participate and would never encourage anyone I know to do so either. The best way to end war, which is never the 'right thing' in my mind to refuse to participate. There are -always- alternatives even if the argument coming from the profiting parties don't frame it in such a way that this is clear. Short of having foreign troops as we have them overseas, in your hometown. Then there likely are few alternatives. Someday, and I think that day is approaching or we wouldn't be automating war, we'll see everyone as the same as us. I'd grab a gun and defend my home in Afghanistan too. I don't blame those people. Just as I'd be a 'terrorist' if the Chinese were in the US today to liberate us. I don't believe in gods or the tooth fairy- but I'd be happy to ally myself with Christian Fundamentalists if it meant preventing some jackass Chinese soldier from blowing up my grandmother's house, raping my wife, or just for simply marching around my hometown like they own the place. Which all of these things happen when you give someone a gun and license to kill. The whole get-the-bad-guy argument has been proven wrong so many times. Looking at the situation today, Saddam was a great guy who we wish we could put back into place. Now there's ISIS, it's all a huge joke on us. I don't honestly believe it's about any noble goals though. It's about perpetual war, using any argument at any cost to keep it going. This is the Vietnam they failed to turn into a perpetual goldmine for those who finance it and build the bombs. If you get my overall point here, you'll see I actually Support the Troops better than those who have the stupid bumper stickers or tell you "thank you for your service". The best way to support them is to bring them home where they belong, defending the nation from attack. I can't thank anyone for their service since I don't support the mission, but I also can't bear the thought we as citizens have somehow allowed this to go on for so long. If political influence wasn't strictly measured by our bank accounts in our society, you'd never had a war to fight.
- waps 12y ago
  I'm curious. You seem to be saying that one cannot avoid every fight (the Chinese stuff in your post) and that one can avoid every fight ("There are -always- alternatives even if the argument coming from the profiting parties don't frame it in such a way that this is clear.") This seems to be a bit contradictory. I'm also curious how it meshes with your personal experience.
  - BuckRogers 12y ago
    I tried to clear that up with this, "Short of having foreign troops as we have them overseas, in your hometown." I was trying to convey that there is always an alternative unless it's out of self-defense. If the Chinese were in the US today, I'm not sure we'd have much choice. I'm also not sure the people of the mideast have much choice either. Does anyone seriously expect them to embrace our "help"? It's asinine and insulting to their (and our) intelligence. It's unfathomable to me that anyone over there wouldn't be taking up arms against 'us'. It should be radicalizing the moderates. What a gift that was for the extremists. The money, lives and hatred created was senseless. Our troops and their population are deeply invested in a conflict that didn't need to happen. Well, except on their side. They had to fight us once we setup shop in their country. These wars are a business venture transferring wealth from the citizenry to those colluding with the gov't, not a noble cause. It meshes with my personal experiences quite well. Unless someone takes a swing at me, I don't fight. I get by well with this principle. I'm never in jail and never standing in front of a judge, and no one gets hurt unnecessarily. I think the same principle would do our nation-state a lot of good. You can't say it's a response to 9/11 (a "swing at us"). Because if this were about stopping Islamic-sourced terrorism, we would've invaded Saudi Arabia first, foremost and long ago. It was a response to nothing, it was an excuse.
    - saiya-jin 12y ago
      briliantly put in many ways... one could possibly say an analogy for Iraq - some friend of a friend of a friend overheard something noone else believed - that a guy (let's say convicted felon who served his sentence) in next town has a gun in his basement. no idea why, but imagine you feel the urge to dispose of this "threat", maybe because you're a military nutjob, or anything else. it doesn't matter that many guys in his neighbourhood have the same weapon, and many more. you try to rally your neighbours and friends to have a raid group. unsurprisingly, your german and french friends are against armed storming of someone else house based just on some overheard rumours (), rest is at least hesitant. you say something along "fk you puies" and storm the house with only friend you are left with - that british fella that you have so much in common with. Long story short, you kill the guy unarmed, don't find any weapon whatsoever and burn his house in the process to ashes. After that you refuse to move from his property, stating you need to keep that neighbourhood protected and invite other armed people to join you. Sorry if I missed some important stuff, and of course this describes only beginning, with all the current mess being result of these (probably intentional) mistakes. If anyone still thinks US is viewed anywhere as a good guy in this war, then NO - there are only bad guys. Personally, ISIS would still have to work hard to match all US-directly-caused civilian casualities in Iraq. It doesn't matter much if someone is beheaded, blown to pieces or machinegunned while going to work, does it... () - that Bush speech in UN was really horrible, I recall it quite well, saying to myself - and they want to screw up another nation completely based on THAT???
higherpurpose 12y ago
Yet you're happy with going into the Iraq war because you were bored and wanted to do something "positive" with your life? You have no regrets about going into an immoral war that should never have happened?
- AYBABTME 12y ago
  I didn't go to Iraq, I went to Afghanistan.
mercer 12y ago
Interesting, in 'Army of Altruists' David Graeber argues the same thing: many young man enter the army because they want to do good, or for other reasons that are not 'killing'. It's not the core of the article, but it's a very interesting article nonetheless: http://blogs.uoregon.edu/philanthropy/files/2014/08/army-of-altruists-graeber-harpers-10xacn2.pdf http://blogs.uoregon.edu/philanthropy/files/2014/08/army-of-...

lukifer 12y ago

As Sun Tzu said, the greatest warrior is the one who need never fight. While this can be interpreted as a pacifist/moral sentiment, it is really deeply practical: fighting incurs risks and resources, even if victorious. The most effective victories come from a credible deterrent which is never actually used. So I don't think your training would have been wasted by not seeing combat, any more than a policeman's weapon is wasted even if it is never fired.

pluma 12y ago
If only US policemen listened more closely to Sun Tzu.

BuckRogers 12y ago

You sound like a good person to me, but I do think you're wrong. It would be very hard for you to not see things the way you've described them, without going crazy at least. It may be best to reject others' opinions, considering what you've done. Just to maintain that sanity. We all lie to ourselves for many things in our lives to maintain sanity. I'm not saying this in any way to be a slight towards you. I personally think the current wars are actually abusive to those who join. Just because someone signs up to -defend- the nation, doesn't mean the political elite has a right to abuse those people. Since I think the wars are unjust, illegal and doing more harm overall than good. I'd never participate and would never encourage anyone I know to do so either. The best way to end war, which is never the 'right thing' in my mind to refuse to participate. There are -always- alternatives even if the argument coming from the profiting parties don't frame it in such a way that this is clear. Short of having foreign troops as we have them overseas, in your hometown. Then there likely are few alternatives. Someday, and I think that day is approaching or we wouldn't be automating war, we'll see everyone as the same as us. I'd grab a gun and defend my home in Afghanistan too. I don't blame those people. Just as I'd be a 'terrorist' if the Chinese were in the US today to liberate us. I don't believe in gods or the tooth fairy- but I'd be happy to ally myself with Christian Fundamentalists if it meant preventing some jackass Chinese soldier from blowing up my grandmother's house, raping my wife, or just for simply marching around my hometown like they own the place. Which all of these things happen when you give someone a gun and license to kill. The whole get-the-bad-guy argument has been proven wrong so many times. Looking at the situation today, Saddam was a great guy who we wish we could put back into place. Now there's ISIS, it's all a huge joke on us. I don't honestly believe it's about any noble goals though. It's about perpetual war, using any argument at any cost to keep it going. This is the Vietnam they failed to turn into a perpetual goldmine for those who finance it and build the bombs. If you get my overall point here, you'll see I actually Support the Troops better than those who have the stupid bumper stickers or tell you "thank you for your service". The best way to support them is to bring them home where they belong, defending the nation from attack. I can't thank anyone for their service since I don't support the mission, but I also can't bear the thought we as citizens have somehow allowed this to go on for so long. If political influence wasn't strictly measured by our bank accounts in our society, you'd never had a war to fight.

waps 12y ago
I'm curious. You seem to be saying that one cannot avoid every fight (the Chinese stuff in your post) and that one can avoid every fight ("There are -always- alternatives even if the argument coming from the profiting parties don't frame it in such a way that this is clear.") This seems to be a bit contradictory. I'm also curious how it meshes with your personal experience.
- BuckRogers 12y ago
  I tried to clear that up with this, "Short of having foreign troops as we have them overseas, in your hometown." I was trying to convey that there is always an alternative unless it's out of self-defense. If the Chinese were in the US today, I'm not sure we'd have much choice. I'm also not sure the people of the mideast have much choice either. Does anyone seriously expect them to embrace our "help"? It's asinine and insulting to their (and our) intelligence. It's unfathomable to me that anyone over there wouldn't be taking up arms against 'us'. It should be radicalizing the moderates. What a gift that was for the extremists. The money, lives and hatred created was senseless. Our troops and their population are deeply invested in a conflict that didn't need to happen. Well, except on their side. They had to fight us once we setup shop in their country. These wars are a business venture transferring wealth from the citizenry to those colluding with the gov't, not a noble cause. It meshes with my personal experiences quite well. Unless someone takes a swing at me, I don't fight. I get by well with this principle. I'm never in jail and never standing in front of a judge, and no one gets hurt unnecessarily. I think the same principle would do our nation-state a lot of good. You can't say it's a response to 9/11 (a "swing at us"). Because if this were about stopping Islamic-sourced terrorism, we would've invaded Saudi Arabia first, foremost and long ago. It was a response to nothing, it was an excuse.
  - saiya-jin 12y ago
    briliantly put in many ways... one could possibly say an analogy for Iraq - some friend of a friend of a friend overheard something noone else believed - that a guy (let's say convicted felon who served his sentence) in next town has a gun in his basement. no idea why, but imagine you feel the urge to dispose of this "threat", maybe because you're a military nutjob, or anything else. it doesn't matter that many guys in his neighbourhood have the same weapon, and many more. you try to rally your neighbours and friends to have a raid group. unsurprisingly, your german and french friends are against armed storming of someone else house based just on some overheard rumours (), rest is at least hesitant. you say something along "fk you puies" and storm the house with only friend you are left with - that british fella that you have so much in common with. Long story short, you kill the guy unarmed, don't find any weapon whatsoever and burn his house in the process to ashes. After that you refuse to move from his property, stating you need to keep that neighbourhood protected and invite other armed people to join you. Sorry if I missed some important stuff, and of course this describes only beginning, with all the current mess being result of these (probably intentional) mistakes. If anyone still thinks US is viewed anywhere as a good guy in this war, then NO - there are only bad guys. Personally, ISIS would still have to work hard to match all US-directly-caused civilian casualities in Iraq. It doesn't matter much if someone is beheaded, blown to pieces or machinegunned while going to work, does it... () - that Bush speech in UN was really horrible, I recall it quite well, saying to myself - and they want to screw up another nation completely based on THAT???

higherpurpose 12y ago

Yet you're happy with going into the Iraq war because you were bored and wanted to do something "positive" with your life? You have no regrets about going into an immoral war that should never have happened?

AYBABTME 12y ago
I didn't go to Iraq, I went to Afghanistan.

mercer 12y ago

Interesting, in 'Army of Altruists' David Graeber argues the same thing: many young man enter the army because they want to do good, or for other reasons that are not 'killing'. It's not the core of the article, but it's a very interesting article nonetheless: http://blogs.uoregon.edu/philanthropy/files/2014/08/army-of-altruists-graeber-harpers-10xacn2.pdf http://blogs.uoregon.edu/philanthropy/files/2014/08/army-of-...