4 ms·

I did the substitution in my head and the statement sounds silly. Just like "manly-man" sounds silly. Is this genuinely offensive and exclusive though?

Frondo 12y ago
To call it "offensive" may be a bit strong (though I'd say it's offensive to those of us who enjoy good use of language ;) ), but exclusive? Sure. It links superior programming and masculinity. You're sitting in a conference room full of women who are developers, and you start saying, "So let's do some manly-man programming and get this done," what are these women supposed to think?
- joenathan 12y ago
  One would hope they were mature enough to understand an idiom, and not so delicate that they would need to be handled with kid gloves.
  - Frondo 12y ago
    Really? So if your dev team consisted of a mix of men and women (not even counting if anyone identified as neither or somewhere in between), you'd still say "Let's put in some manly-man programming time" to them? What if your dev team consisted of just one employee, a woman? Would you still tell her to put in her manly-man programming time? I'm having trouble seeing it. "Jane, it's crunch time. Can you man up and put in some manly-man programming time this weekend?"
    - joenathan 12y ago
      I already do this exactly, in the case where it's one woman it would be humorous to use that statement and would lighten the mood. If someone is looking to be offended then they will find a reason no matter what is said or how it's said. Intent is the thing that should be judged, anything else is a foolish way to live and you will constantly find yourself offended.
      - Frondo 12y ago
        I'm sure the old people I know who still refer to black folks as "negros" don't mean anything by it. I also bet the people who throw around "gay" as a generic pejorative aren't thinking of actual gay people when they use the word as an insult. That doesn't make either one acceptable here in the 2010s. Same with telling a woman that doing something "manly-man" style is doing it skillfully. And even if you know it's going to be taken as humorous, let me give you a hint: it's not very funny. It's just not very good as humor. There is much better material out there if you're going for a joke.
        joenathan 12y ago
        I am black and would not be offended if someone referred to me as a negro, if they mean no offense, then I take no offense. I've been referred to as African American, Afro American, colored, person of color, black, negro, etc. It makes no difference to me personally. Unless intended otherwise, it's just a point of reference.
        Frondo 12y ago
        Would you say that your personal experience is generalizable to many/most people of color? If, say, someone from another company who's visited your offices for a day later refers to you as "that negro in product development," would it be typical that other people of color would take no offense at that use of language? I'm curious about it. I don't have that lived-in experience, so all I can do to understand is ask and listen.
        joenathan 12y ago
        I have customers from Latin America and negro in Spanish simply means black. Why would I ruin my day and relationship with someone by taking offense to a word when there was no malice intended?
        Frondo 12y ago
  - Snesker 12y ago
    "not so delicate that they would need to be handled with kid gloves." See... it's the little things like this. I am pretty sure that was not your intention, but please do know that turns of phrases like that hurt a little, and exclude a little. To see what I mean, s/kid/jew/ or s/kid/white/ or some other category and see how it reads.
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Frondo 12y ago

To call it "offensive" may be a bit strong (though I'd say it's offensive to those of us who enjoy good use of language ;) ), but exclusive? Sure. It links superior programming and masculinity. You're sitting in a conference room full of women who are developers, and you start saying, "So let's do some manly-man programming and get this done," what are these women supposed to think?

joenathan 12y ago
One would hope they were mature enough to understand an idiom, and not so delicate that they would need to be handled with kid gloves.
- Frondo 12y ago
  Really? So if your dev team consisted of a mix of men and women (not even counting if anyone identified as neither or somewhere in between), you'd still say "Let's put in some manly-man programming time" to them? What if your dev team consisted of just one employee, a woman? Would you still tell her to put in her manly-man programming time? I'm having trouble seeing it. "Jane, it's crunch time. Can you man up and put in some manly-man programming time this weekend?"
  - joenathan 12y ago
    I already do this exactly, in the case where it's one woman it would be humorous to use that statement and would lighten the mood. If someone is looking to be offended then they will find a reason no matter what is said or how it's said. Intent is the thing that should be judged, anything else is a foolish way to live and you will constantly find yourself offended.
    - Frondo 12y ago
      I'm sure the old people I know who still refer to black folks as "negros" don't mean anything by it. I also bet the people who throw around "gay" as a generic pejorative aren't thinking of actual gay people when they use the word as an insult. That doesn't make either one acceptable here in the 2010s. Same with telling a woman that doing something "manly-man" style is doing it skillfully. And even if you know it's going to be taken as humorous, let me give you a hint: it's not very funny. It's just not very good as humor. There is much better material out there if you're going for a joke.
      - joenathan 12y ago
        I am black and would not be offended if someone referred to me as a negro, if they mean no offense, then I take no offense. I've been referred to as African American, Afro American, colored, person of color, black, negro, etc. It makes no difference to me personally. Unless intended otherwise, it's just a point of reference.
        Frondo 12y ago
        Would you say that your personal experience is generalizable to many/most people of color? If, say, someone from another company who's visited your offices for a day later refers to you as "that negro in product development," would it be typical that other people of color would take no offense at that use of language? I'm curious about it. I don't have that lived-in experience, so all I can do to understand is ask and listen.
        joenathan 12y ago
        I have customers from Latin America and negro in Spanish simply means black. Why would I ruin my day and relationship with someone by taking offense to a word when there was no malice intended?
        Frondo 12y ago
- Snesker 12y ago
  "not so delicate that they would need to be handled with kid gloves." See... it's the little things like this. I am pretty sure that was not your intention, but please do know that turns of phrases like that hurt a little, and exclude a little. To see what I mean, s/kid/jew/ or s/kid/white/ or some other category and see how it reads.

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