7 ms·

"A little manly-man programming from the wrist and we move on to real problems." See... it's the little things like this. I am pretty sure that was not your in

by gone35 12y ago

"A little manly-man programming from the wrist and we move on to real problems." See... it's the little things like this. I am pretty sure that was not your intention, but please do know that turns of phrases like that hurt a little, and exclude a little. To see what I mean, s/man/jew/ or s/man/white/ or some other category and see how it reads.

engi_nerd 12y ago
I did the substitution in my head and the statement sounds silly. Just like "manly-man" sounds silly. Is this genuinely offensive and exclusive though?
- Frondo 12y ago
  To call it "offensive" may be a bit strong (though I'd say it's offensive to those of us who enjoy good use of language ;) ), but exclusive? Sure. It links superior programming and masculinity. You're sitting in a conference room full of women who are developers, and you start saying, "So let's do some manly-man programming and get this done," what are these women supposed to think?
  - joenathan 12y ago
    One would hope they were mature enough to understand an idiom, and not so delicate that they would need to be handled with kid gloves.
    - Frondo 12y ago
      Really? So if your dev team consisted of a mix of men and women (not even counting if anyone identified as neither or somewhere in between), you'd still say "Let's put in some manly-man programming time" to them? What if your dev team consisted of just one employee, a woman? Would you still tell her to put in her manly-man programming time? I'm having trouble seeing it. "Jane, it's crunch time. Can you man up and put in some manly-man programming time this weekend?"
      - joenathan 12y ago
        I already do this exactly, in the case where it's one woman it would be humorous to use that statement and would lighten the mood. If someone is looking to be offended then they will find a reason no matter what is said or how it's said. Intent is the thing that should be judged, anything else is a foolish way to live and you will constantly find yourself offended.
        Frondo 12y ago
        I'm sure the old people I know who still refer to black folks as "negros" don't mean anything by it. I also bet the people who throw around "gay" as a generic pejorative aren't thinking of actual gay people when they use the word as an insult. That doesn't make either one acceptable here in the 2010s. Same with telling a woman that doing something "manly-man" style is doing it skillfully. And even if you know it's going to be taken as humorous, let me give you a hint: it's not very funny. It's just not very good as humor. There is much better material out there if you're going for a joke.
        joenathan 12y ago
        I am black and would not be offended if someone referred to me as a negro, if they mean no offense, then I take no offense. I've been referred to as African American, Afro American, colored, person of color, black, negro, etc. It makes no difference to me personally. Unless intended otherwise, it's just a point of reference.
        Frondo 12y ago
        Would you say that your personal experience is generalizable to many/most people of color? If, say, someone from another company who's visited your offices for a day later refers to you as "that negro in product development," would it be typical that other people of color would take no offense at that use of language? I'm curious about it. I don't have that lived-in experience, so all I can do to understand is ask and listen.
    - Snesker 12y ago
      "not so delicate that they would need to be handled with kid gloves." See... it's the little things like this. I am pretty sure that was not your intention, but please do know that turns of phrases like that hurt a little, and exclude a little. To see what I mean, s/kid/jew/ or s/kid/white/ or some other category and see how it reads.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
rcr 12y ago
You can't really be serious.
- Frondo 12y ago
  Sure he is. I for one look forward to when we drop these asinine phrases like "manly-man" from casual conversation and start speaking with a better, broader, more meaningful, and richer kind of vocabulary.
  - ra1n85 12y ago
    I for one look forward to when language can be used in a way that the original author sees fit and without having to pander to every gentle sensitivity or taste.
    - Frondo 12y ago
      I don't know how the original author intended it, except that they seem to equate programming ability with masculinity. If that's what they meant, that's a pretty retrograde attitude. If that isn't what they meant, maybe it's time to update their vocabulary.
      - evincarofautumn 12y ago
        We should be considerate in how we listen as well as how we speak. It does no good to speak insensitively, nor to listen oversensitively. Communication is a two-way street. When I feel offended, I treat it as an opportunity to learn about a different viewpoint. Sometimes it makes me change my mind. It always gives me a better understanding of people.
        Frondo 12y ago
        The thing is, you've got a woman right here telling you, "this is exclusionary and seems stupid on the face of it." We don't even have to guess at how it's taken by someone who doesn't fit into its built-in description; they're telling us in plain language. The different viewpoint, I guess, is that the original author has some outdated views on gender competence. I've seen lots of comments saying "oh but it adds flair to language," and that's a reeeeeally weak defense. There is much better language available; that stuff just sounds stupid at best and retrograde at worst.
AaronIG 12y ago
The phrase he used has a fairly well understood meaning, so of course the substitution would read differently. It would be an entirely new phrase. Different words/phrases have different connotations.
shaftoe 12y ago
I don't get it. I read his comment as self-deprecating humor. If he had used white, jew, or whatever else may apply, it would still be self-deprecating humor, which is generally non-offensive for the simple reason it applies to the self.
general_failure 12y ago
This comment is terrifying. You cannot say anything without being called out with this sort of terrible attitude.
- Frondo 12y ago
  Of course you can. Language is intensely rich, there's such a tiny subset of stuff that we're now starting to recognize rubs people the wrong way/excludes people/makes us sound like cavemen. I don't at all get what benefit there is to being able to say "manly-man programming," either from a communication or a social standpoint. I don't get what's lost when we replace "manly-man programming" with anything less stupid and awful.
  - bjt 12y ago
    s/cavemen/cavepeople/
    - general_failure 12y ago
      We should apply parent's logic here :)
  - general_failure 12y ago
    What's gained is language flair and color. You may not see it but I do. This is like any other literature. Don't force the world into newspeak.
smadge 12y ago
"phrases like that hurt a little, and exclude a little." I agree with you on that part but your substitution doesn't make much sense. The original comment links programming competency to masculinity, which is a problem. It's as simple as that.
- Snesker 12y ago
  Why is that a problem?
corndoge 12y ago
So, if cultural-linguistic idioms make use of a specific gender, they shouldn't be used because someone might get offended? At some point you have to assume that the other party is mature enough to understand and tolerate speech that isn't exactly tailored to their gender or sexual preference or race or what have you. I'm not going to cut out all the parts of my vocabulary that aren't perfectly 'equal' in the eyes of another.
kabdib 12y ago
Well, if I wanted to offend, I would have. It is frankly no challenge to deliberately say something un-PC and widely offensive. It is also apparently little more challenging to utter something more subtle and more narrowly offensive. I look at "manly man" depictions of, well, manly men (for instance, watch Kevin Kline's performance in A Fish Called Wanda) as parody. Monty Python did it. Mark Twain probably did it. Do they offend people? Sure. Do people not get the joke? Oh yeah. Did that stop the artists in question? Not really. Am I comparing myself to great artists? I'm not worthy, but I study at the feet of masters. So, in my writing (and I've done a bit of it; look at my profile and my blog) I tend not to give a flying unmentionable about who I piss off. Now, HN is different because it's not my ball game here, but hey, if everyone wrote so as not to offend then the world would be a dull place. I've opposed what I believe is the actual evil -- Political Correctness -- for decades, and I'm not going to stop now. I like to take language out and give it a violent shake. Have fun with it, see what it can do. I'm not going to change the world by substituting something benign and utterly unoffensive for "manly-man," so fuck it. That's what down-votes are for. I'm not even sure what I'd put there instead, quite frankly. Your suggestions don't preserve the meaning at all. Kevin Kline would be sad. I regret that you were offended. Now, can we Godwin this stupid thread and get it over with? Someone toss in the grenade, okay? in 10, 9, 8 . . .
- staunch 12y ago
  BOOM
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- yareally 12y ago
  I enjoyed the insights in your first comment and looked forward to reading this thread for obscure tidbits on audio latency on Android. However, instead of getting replies on your experience, we get a huge meta thread that contributes nothing to the original topic. Sadly, some users have to disrupt a thread, no matter how inane or off-topic it might be :(. Sometimes it gets to the point I don't even want to read or contribute to the discussions on HN anymore and add the site to my hosts list so I won't be tempted to read it out of habit. Eventually I come back, but the times in between get longer. After skimming the comment history of the person you're replying to, I'd just ignore them, because they have a history of doing this. If HN had an ignore list, they would surely be on mine. Won't be the first or last time they disrupt (troll) a thread.

by gone35 12y ago

engi_nerd 12y ago

I did the substitution in my head and the statement sounds silly. Just like "manly-man" sounds silly. Is this genuinely offensive and exclusive though?

Frondo 12y ago
To call it "offensive" may be a bit strong (though I'd say it's offensive to those of us who enjoy good use of language ;) ), but exclusive? Sure. It links superior programming and masculinity. You're sitting in a conference room full of women who are developers, and you start saying, "So let's do some manly-man programming and get this done," what are these women supposed to think?
- joenathan 12y ago
  One would hope they were mature enough to understand an idiom, and not so delicate that they would need to be handled with kid gloves.
  - Frondo 12y ago
    Really? So if your dev team consisted of a mix of men and women (not even counting if anyone identified as neither or somewhere in between), you'd still say "Let's put in some manly-man programming time" to them? What if your dev team consisted of just one employee, a woman? Would you still tell her to put in her manly-man programming time? I'm having trouble seeing it. "Jane, it's crunch time. Can you man up and put in some manly-man programming time this weekend?"
    - joenathan 12y ago
      I already do this exactly, in the case where it's one woman it would be humorous to use that statement and would lighten the mood. If someone is looking to be offended then they will find a reason no matter what is said or how it's said. Intent is the thing that should be judged, anything else is a foolish way to live and you will constantly find yourself offended.
      - Frondo 12y ago
        I'm sure the old people I know who still refer to black folks as "negros" don't mean anything by it. I also bet the people who throw around "gay" as a generic pejorative aren't thinking of actual gay people when they use the word as an insult. That doesn't make either one acceptable here in the 2010s. Same with telling a woman that doing something "manly-man" style is doing it skillfully. And even if you know it's going to be taken as humorous, let me give you a hint: it's not very funny. It's just not very good as humor. There is much better material out there if you're going for a joke.
        joenathan 12y ago
        I am black and would not be offended if someone referred to me as a negro, if they mean no offense, then I take no offense. I've been referred to as African American, Afro American, colored, person of color, black, negro, etc. It makes no difference to me personally. Unless intended otherwise, it's just a point of reference.
        Frondo 12y ago
        Would you say that your personal experience is generalizable to many/most people of color? If, say, someone from another company who's visited your offices for a day later refers to you as "that negro in product development," would it be typical that other people of color would take no offense at that use of language? I'm curious about it. I don't have that lived-in experience, so all I can do to understand is ask and listen.
  - Snesker 12y ago
    "not so delicate that they would need to be handled with kid gloves." See... it's the little things like this. I am pretty sure that was not your intention, but please do know that turns of phrases like that hurt a little, and exclude a little. To see what I mean, s/kid/jew/ or s/kid/white/ or some other category and see how it reads.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

rcr 12y ago

You can't really be serious.

Frondo 12y ago
Sure he is. I for one look forward to when we drop these asinine phrases like "manly-man" from casual conversation and start speaking with a better, broader, more meaningful, and richer kind of vocabulary.
- ra1n85 12y ago
  I for one look forward to when language can be used in a way that the original author sees fit and without having to pander to every gentle sensitivity or taste.
  - Frondo 12y ago
    I don't know how the original author intended it, except that they seem to equate programming ability with masculinity. If that's what they meant, that's a pretty retrograde attitude. If that isn't what they meant, maybe it's time to update their vocabulary.
    - evincarofautumn 12y ago
      We should be considerate in how we listen as well as how we speak. It does no good to speak insensitively, nor to listen oversensitively. Communication is a two-way street. When I feel offended, I treat it as an opportunity to learn about a different viewpoint. Sometimes it makes me change my mind. It always gives me a better understanding of people.
      - Frondo 12y ago
        The thing is, you've got a woman right here telling you, "this is exclusionary and seems stupid on the face of it." We don't even have to guess at how it's taken by someone who doesn't fit into its built-in description; they're telling us in plain language. The different viewpoint, I guess, is that the original author has some outdated views on gender competence. I've seen lots of comments saying "oh but it adds flair to language," and that's a reeeeeally weak defense. There is much better language available; that stuff just sounds stupid at best and retrograde at worst.

AaronIG 12y ago

The phrase he used has a fairly well understood meaning, so of course the substitution would read differently. It would be an entirely new phrase. Different words/phrases have different connotations.

shaftoe 12y ago

I don't get it. I read his comment as self-deprecating humor. If he had used white, jew, or whatever else may apply, it would still be self-deprecating humor, which is generally non-offensive for the simple reason it applies to the self.

general_failure 12y ago

This comment is terrifying. You cannot say anything without being called out with this sort of terrible attitude.

Frondo 12y ago
Of course you can. Language is intensely rich, there's such a tiny subset of stuff that we're now starting to recognize rubs people the wrong way/excludes people/makes us sound like cavemen. I don't at all get what benefit there is to being able to say "manly-man programming," either from a communication or a social standpoint. I don't get what's lost when we replace "manly-man programming" with anything less stupid and awful.
- bjt 12y ago
  s/cavemen/cavepeople/
  - general_failure 12y ago
    We should apply parent's logic here :)
- general_failure 12y ago
  What's gained is language flair and color. You may not see it but I do. This is like any other literature. Don't force the world into newspeak.

smadge 12y ago

"phrases like that hurt a little, and exclude a little." I agree with you on that part but your substitution doesn't make much sense. The original comment links programming competency to masculinity, which is a problem. It's as simple as that.

Snesker 12y ago
Why is that a problem?

corndoge 12y ago

So, if cultural-linguistic idioms make use of a specific gender, they shouldn't be used because someone might get offended? At some point you have to assume that the other party is mature enough to understand and tolerate speech that isn't exactly tailored to their gender or sexual preference or race or what have you. I'm not going to cut out all the parts of my vocabulary that aren't perfectly 'equal' in the eyes of another.

kabdib 12y ago

Well, if I wanted to offend, I would have. It is frankly no challenge to deliberately say something un-PC and widely offensive. It is also apparently little more challenging to utter something more subtle and more narrowly offensive. I look at "manly man" depictions of, well, manly men (for instance, watch Kevin Kline's performance in A Fish Called Wanda) as parody. Monty Python did it. Mark Twain probably did it. Do they offend people? Sure. Do people not get the joke? Oh yeah. Did that stop the artists in question? Not really. Am I comparing myself to great artists? I'm not worthy, but I study at the feet of masters. So, in my writing (and I've done a bit of it; look at my profile and my blog) I tend not to give a flying unmentionable about who I piss off. Now, HN is different because it's not my ball game here, but hey, if everyone wrote so as not to offend then the world would be a dull place. I've opposed what I believe is the actual evil -- Political Correctness -- for decades, and I'm not going to stop now. I like to take language out and give it a violent shake. Have fun with it, see what it can do. I'm not going to change the world by substituting something benign and utterly unoffensive for "manly-man," so fuck it. That's what down-votes are for. I'm not even sure what I'd put there instead, quite frankly. Your suggestions don't preserve the meaning at all. Kevin Kline would be sad. I regret that you were offended. Now, can we Godwin this stupid thread and get it over with? Someone toss in the grenade, okay? in 10, 9, 8 . . .

staunch 12y ago
BOOM
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
yareally 12y ago
I enjoyed the insights in your first comment and looked forward to reading this thread for obscure tidbits on audio latency on Android. However, instead of getting replies on your experience, we get a huge meta thread that contributes nothing to the original topic. Sadly, some users have to disrupt a thread, no matter how inane or off-topic it might be :(. Sometimes it gets to the point I don't even want to read or contribute to the discussions on HN anymore and add the site to my hosts list so I won't be tempted to read it out of habit. Eventually I come back, but the times in between get longer. After skimming the comment history of the person you're replying to, I'd just ignore them, because they have a history of doing this. If HN had an ignore list, they would surely be on mine. Won't be the first or last time they disrupt (troll) a thread.