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These "secret orders" are an abuse of power, and we already have many indications that they are being abused (eg: more used for going after drug dealers than te

by MCRed 12y ago

These "secret orders" are an abuse of power, and we already have many indications that they are being abused (eg: more used for going after drug dealers than terrorists, which was the "justification" for them originally.) That we admit this, that our government is acting in a criminal fashion, in conflict with the constitution, and we have accepted it as "normal" is just proof that we are frogs who think the water is just fine. We should be outraged and demanding prosecutions and investigations. But of course, who owns the prosecutors and the investigators? The government. And we've been taught by government schools to be "good germans" (Eg: to give the benefit of the doubt and wide latitude to government.)

vectorpush 12y ago
> we are frogs who think the water is just fine. And just like actual frogs that are slowly heated, we will almost certainly jump out of the water if the pot approaches a boil. The apathy stems from the fact that the water is just fine for most citizens; the frogs who are subject to this abuse reside in a completely different pot than the one that most citizens enjoy. I'm not saying I condone surveillance abuse or drug war policies, but the reality is that while your average citizen may be alarmed by the presence of a hot stove, they just can't be bothered to revolt for the sake of an adjacent pot full of drug dealers.
- Estragon 12y ago
  Do you think a typical person from 1995 would be happy to hear what the state of civil liberties would be in 2015? I would have been shocked.
  - vectorpush 12y ago
    I feel like it's tough to transpose the mindset of 1995 into the zeitgeist of 2015. The average citizen of 1995 was a lot less sensitive to the every day minutia of disparate civil rights flashpoints that culminate to create the picture we have of civil rights today. There is also a lot more deliberately controversial political content produced by today's media which sets up an environment where there's something of an implicit expectation that everyone will or should have a "stance" on every political issue. The world of 2015 is one where every average citizen has their own set of pet grievances that are wont to implicate the government in a violation of civil rights. Can you imagine how the citizens of 1995 would have reacted to a Snowden of the time? It'd be a complete non-event.
rjbwork 12y ago
It would be nice if all the takedowns were from the government. They've not mentioned the non-legal-system-influenced takedowns of https://github.com/GamerGate/GamerGateOP https://github.com/GamerGate/GamerGateOP and https://github.com/FeministSoftwareFoundation/C-plus-Equality https://github.com/FeministSoftwareFoundation/C-plus-Equalit... Who cares if they're transparent in government takedowns if they're going to actively censor their own users?
- broodbucket 12y ago
  Either these takedowns need to be documented in the report, or the reasoning should be on the repo itself (i.e. "broke rule x" or "offended too many users" (which hopefully isn't a reason something is taken down)). GitHub seems to be following the Reddit moderation style of "nothing that's illegal, or against our rules, or stuff that makes us look bad which we decide when we get grumpy emails"
- parennoob 12y ago
  From what I can see, it looks like GitHub employee @jakeboxer explicitly took the GamerGate one down to satisfy a feminist called @nexxylove because she claimed it contained "stalking and harassment" documents. http://imgur.com/AgSwrE2 http://imgur.com/AgSwrE2. This is the same individual claiming to be "astounded and really fucking angry" at the Intel/Gamasutra fiasco part of Gamergate (http://i.imgur.com/l1Uwkvd.png http://i.imgur.com/l1Uwkvd.png) Yep, not evident from the transparency report that repos get taken down so casually, with other users protesting. [I'm guessing it probably didn't contain those sort of instructions, and they can't claim so in the transparency report, because that would be libelous.]
  - rjbwork 12y ago
    Wow. I didn't know the gamergate thing went down like that. Apparently your repos on github can just be deleted at the whims of the employees... Overall github is great but they definitely have some Growing up to do as an organization.
iyn 12y ago
I agree 100% with what you're saying. Do you have any ideas what can we do to improve the state of affairs? Sure, building better software, with better crypto is part of the way, but we need cultural/political/social change, and I have no idea how this should be approached. Most people don't care, sadly. How to make them care, before it's too late (i.e when changing the situation involves violence)? We know we have a problem (well, a lot of problems), I suggest we all try to think how to solve them.
shit_parade2 12y ago
The only real solution is civil disobedience, why comply with illegitimate laws?

by MCRed 12y ago

vectorpush 12y ago

> we are frogs who think the water is just fine. And just like actual frogs that are slowly heated, we will almost certainly jump out of the water if the pot approaches a boil. The apathy stems from the fact that the water is just fine for most citizens; the frogs who are subject to this abuse reside in a completely different pot than the one that most citizens enjoy. I'm not saying I condone surveillance abuse or drug war policies, but the reality is that while your average citizen may be alarmed by the presence of a hot stove, they just can't be bothered to revolt for the sake of an adjacent pot full of drug dealers.

Estragon 12y ago
Do you think a typical person from 1995 would be happy to hear what the state of civil liberties would be in 2015? I would have been shocked.
- vectorpush 12y ago
  I feel like it's tough to transpose the mindset of 1995 into the zeitgeist of 2015. The average citizen of 1995 was a lot less sensitive to the every day minutia of disparate civil rights flashpoints that culminate to create the picture we have of civil rights today. There is also a lot more deliberately controversial political content produced by today's media which sets up an environment where there's something of an implicit expectation that everyone will or should have a "stance" on every political issue. The world of 2015 is one where every average citizen has their own set of pet grievances that are wont to implicate the government in a violation of civil rights. Can you imagine how the citizens of 1995 would have reacted to a Snowden of the time? It'd be a complete non-event.

rjbwork 12y ago

It would be nice if all the takedowns were from the government. They've not mentioned the non-legal-system-influenced takedowns of https://github.com/GamerGate/GamerGateOP https://github.com/GamerGate/GamerGateOP and https://github.com/FeministSoftwareFoundation/C-plus-Equality https://github.com/FeministSoftwareFoundation/C-plus-Equalit... Who cares if they're transparent in government takedowns if they're going to actively censor their own users?

broodbucket 12y ago
Either these takedowns need to be documented in the report, or the reasoning should be on the repo itself (i.e. "broke rule x" or "offended too many users" (which hopefully isn't a reason something is taken down)). GitHub seems to be following the Reddit moderation style of "nothing that's illegal, or against our rules, or stuff that makes us look bad which we decide when we get grumpy emails"
parennoob 12y ago
From what I can see, it looks like GitHub employee @jakeboxer explicitly took the GamerGate one down to satisfy a feminist called @nexxylove because she claimed it contained "stalking and harassment" documents. http://imgur.com/AgSwrE2 http://imgur.com/AgSwrE2. This is the same individual claiming to be "astounded and really fucking angry" at the Intel/Gamasutra fiasco part of Gamergate (http://i.imgur.com/l1Uwkvd.png http://i.imgur.com/l1Uwkvd.png) Yep, not evident from the transparency report that repos get taken down so casually, with other users protesting. [I'm guessing it probably didn't contain those sort of instructions, and they can't claim so in the transparency report, because that would be libelous.]
- rjbwork 12y ago
  Wow. I didn't know the gamergate thing went down like that. Apparently your repos on github can just be deleted at the whims of the employees... Overall github is great but they definitely have some Growing up to do as an organization.

iyn 12y ago

I agree 100% with what you're saying. Do you have any ideas what can we do to improve the state of affairs? Sure, building better software, with better crypto is part of the way, but we need cultural/political/social change, and I have no idea how this should be approached. Most people don't care, sadly. How to make them care, before it's too late (i.e when changing the situation involves violence)? We know we have a problem (well, a lot of problems), I suggest we all try to think how to solve them.

shit_parade2 12y ago

The only real solution is civil disobedience, why comply with illegitimate laws?