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The Roomba for Lawns Is Really Pissing Off Astronomers
- briandear 12y agoWow. That article took 8 paragraphs or so before it explained the issue that was irritating astronomers. Terrible writing.
- veidr 12y agoYep, completely contrary to everything I learned in journalism school. TL;DR (from the seventh and last paragraph) — "The frequency band proposed for the lawnbot (6240-6740 MHz) is the very same one several enormous radio telescopes operate on."
- pc86 12y agoThere are 14 paragraphs in the article.
- veidr 12y agoIndeed there are. I could see them all after checking on my phone; the Wi-Fi in my hotel apparently choked on the full-width ad inserted after the seventh. Still, I would have put the key info from the seventh paragraph into the first, e.g.: "WHO CAN HATE a Roomba? Astronomers, that’s who, because the latest models in the domestic robot family interfere with the radio frequencies used by major astronomical observatories..."
- smhg 12y agoDepends on the goal I guess. What you might have been taught: inform your readers. The writer's goal/task was probably something like "create content" in the broad sense. My personal opinion: please keep doing what you learned in journalism school :)
- TeMPOraL 12y ago> The writer's goal/task was probably something like "create content" in the broad sense. Yeah, in the so-called "content marketing" sense of the word, i.e. create whatever random stuff that will get people interested enough that we can monetize them (or get paid by whoever hired us to do the content marketing). Source: I interact personally with content marketers on a daily basis.
- e40 12y agoFilling space is how they justify their jobs. The entire article could have been a few small paragraphs.
- jiballer 12y agoI'm curious why it needs beacons when we have things like self-driving cars and machine learning? Is it just a matter of cost?
- Piskvorrr 12y agoIndeed. Easier on customer service, too: "and are you SURE that you have your beacons positioned correctly?"
- bpires 12y agoHow are you going to know where someone's property ends? You're not going to equip a lawn mower with a mounted laser range finder and sophisticated image processing capabilities.
- sp332 12y agoSelf-driving cars barely exist as prototypes. It's not production-ready tech.
- chc 12y agoDon't Tesla already have their autopilot tech released?
- robterrell 12y agoIt doesn't steer. It augments the cruise control, accelerating and decelerating in stop-and-go traffic (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcwObeGB_mU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcwObeGB_mU). Which isn't nothing, but it's not driving you to work.
- TeMPOraL 12y agoI've heard them claiming that it could indeed drive you from home to work using public roads and that it is capable of finding you and driving the car to you when you call for it (aka. "Batmobile mode").
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- wpietri 12y agoI have pal who did sysadmin work for a radio telescope; they went to amazing lengths to avoid interference. The details escape me now (hopefully some of those folks will chime in with their stories), but I remember being impressed about how thoughtful and serious they were. So between the radio astronomers and corporate lawyers, I'm inclined to believe the astronomers.
- hellweaver666 12y agoWhy can't we just manually "walk" the mower around the border so it knows where it's boundries are?
- detaro 12y agoBecause the hard part is figuring out where it actually is relative to these borders when it runs around later. If the border is actively detectable (beacons, buried wire, ...) that becomes easier.
- Zikes 12y agoIt would still need one or more fixed points of reference to keep track of its position. It wouldn't be able to reliably tell where it currently is in relation to where it's been.
- jarman 12y agoProblem is probably not in boundary setting, but in bot positioning. Anything fancier than beacons would raise production or support costs too much for mass consumer product
- drzaiusapelord 12y agoThe "internet of things" is just going to make this worse and there's really no fighting it. My question is considering how many billions are pissed away tossing men and women into the ISS for reasons not apparent to me, why don't we have a radio telescope on the far side of the moon yet? I keep hearing about all these manned missions, COTS money handed to SpaceX, etc but the one thing that would be a gamechanger for radio astronony is not even on anyone's radar. I'd love to see the next POTUS make this a priority. Yeah, Orion and the SLS are impressive, but they're mostly fighting yesterday's battles - pretty much a souped up Apollo for similar big feel-good missions where men and women go into LEO/moon/asteroids/maybe-mars for a very short time and fly right back. Why can't we also fund a farside telescope that could work for decades 24/7 providing space science advantages we simply cannot get any other way?
- g-clef 12y agoThe moon is a pretty bad place for any long-term base...lunar dust is really hard on equipment. The l4/l5 points, though, are very interesting and there's a bunch of projects putting probes at the various l4/l5 points in the solar system. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_objects_at_Lagrangian_points http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_objects_at_Lagrangian_p...
- titzer 12y agoThere's no atmosphere, so its unlikely Lunar dust would contaminate any equipment. It settles immediately after landing and doesn't blow around. Minimal shielded for touchdown would be all that's necessary.
- drzaiusapelord 12y agoPerhaps I wasn't clear. This would be an unmanned telescope. We're talking a one time landing of a piece of equipment. Dust will be a non-issue after the initial landing.
- g-clef 12y agoNot necessarily. One of the interesting results from LADEE was that the measured lunar dust increased a few hours before the probe landed (attributed possibly to the geminid meteor shower). There's lots of stuff that can kick dust off the lunar surface. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Atmosphere_and_Dust_Environment_Explorer#Preliminary_results http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Atmosphere_and_Dust_Envir...
- ohashi 12y agoSo why can't they just use a different frequency?
- LandoCalrissian 12y agoKind of my question. Why can't they use one of the standard open frequencies like 433mhz? I assume there is some reason, maybe broadcast distance and strength for bigger yards?
- cevanwells 12y agoExactly. What makes the 6Ghz spectrum so attractive to iRobot? If they are asking the FCC for an exception anyway, isn't there another frequency they could use with the same method of location finding?
- userbinator 12y agoI'm not sure why they're so obstinate about using a very-high-frequency band of RF for this. Is GPS not accurate enough? How about a more mechanical method, or near-field communications? the only way to get them to work is to dig a trench along the perimeter of a lawn and install a wire that creates the electronic fence needed to ensure the automaton don’t wander beyond the property line. If they really want to implement that method, shopping cart locking systems have done it before, and they don't need 6GHz+ RF: http://www.wired.com/2007/07/hack-remote-sho/ http://www.wired.com/2007/07/hack-remote-sho/
- pmorici 12y agoYou mis read it, they want to _avoid_ having a buried wire system. They are instead proposing a stake system which is what they are requesting a waiver for.
- rwmj 12y agoTomorrow's World, 1979: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ade1JYpscl0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ade1JYpscl0 I wonder if the real reason is that they can't get a patent for simpler methods because it's all been done decades ago?
- TeMPOraL 12y agoI so wouldn't be surprised if that would be the actual reason.
- cwyers 12y ago> Is GPS not accurate enough? It really isn't.
- teamonkey 12y agoOr optical, even? Once you've accepted that there will need to be a stake in the ground, you'd already eliminate a lot of the line-of-sight problems.
- pjc50 12y agoGPS accuracy on its own is nowhere near good enough. Differential GPS can give you 1cm accuracy: http://www.blackroc-technology.com/technologies/gnss/dgps/ http://www.blackroc-technology.com/technologies/gnss/dgps/
- JoeAltmaier 12y agoIt comes down to some engineer choosing a certain chip and antennae. iRobot, come on, choose a different vendor and end this silliness.
- josefresco 12y agoI'm all for robotics, but the thought of an unattended machine whirling around my yard with spinning blades (of death) worries me. Granted, my "lawn guy" races around my yard already like a NASCAR driver on crack, but part of me wonders what sort of mishaps this robotic vacuum might get itself into. Small animals, toys, sprinkler heads etc. It's one thing if your vacuum sucks up a kid's toy, or harasses your cat. Imagine the potential liability if your robotic lawn mower left your yard and entered your neighbors.
- ptaipale 12y agoStiga has been making robot mowers for quite a while, and I haven't heard of drunken Swedes who would have been hacked to death by their mowers after passing out on their lawn. Apparently animals will run away and sprinkler heads can be marked with perimeter wire so that the gadget avoids them. http://www.stiga.com/products/stiga_en/robot-mowers.html http://www.stiga.com/products/stiga_en/robot-mowers.html
- josefresco 12y agoI have sprinkler heads all over my lawn, if the lawn mower avoided them I'd have patches of long grass. My sprinkler heads will routinely get stuck in the "up" position due to sand/dirt that gets stuck in the sliding mechanism. This actually seems solvable by robotics, but it's not a viable solution for beacons or markers as they are meant to be "passed over" by lawn mowers.
- jkmcf 12y agoRight now, Stiga is wondering WTF is going on with their website.
- melling 12y agoThis is from a TechCrunch article published 3 days ago: http://techcrunch.com/2015/04/13/irobot-is-working-on-a-robotic-mower-thats-angering-astronomers/#.km5ued:h4Jv http://techcrunch.com/2015/04/13/irobot-is-working-on-a-robo... "iRobot: “Use of the iRobotRLM [robot lawn mower] will increase lawn mower safety. An estimated 1,517 lethal accidents occurred with lawn mowers through the years 1997 to 2010. It is reasonable to assume that many of these injuries and deaths would not occur if consumers used a robotic mower. More than 17 million gallons of fuel, mostly gasoline, are spilled each year while refueling lawn equipment. Abattery poweredRLM will reduce emissions, gasoline spills, fires and other such accidents.”NRAO: “iRobot cited multiple statistics of grim accidents and spilt gasoline to assert the public benefit of approving its wireless robotic lawn mowers. However, there is already a competitive market for robotic lawn mowers using wire loops [buried edge wire], which has somehow failed to stanch the stream of ghastly accidents and spilt gasoline that iRobot associates with the mundane practice of lawn-mowing.”"
- uptown 12y agoIs this the same technology used by invisible fences intended to contain dogs in a yard?
- cpwright 12y agoYes, but they are arguing that using the invisible fence wire is too costly/difficult for a lawnmower. I can see that argument. A basic consumer lawnmower is probably $200-600 right now. An installed pet fence is quite a bit more. Also, installing a pet fence, e.g. across driveways and paths can involve asphalt/concrete cutting, and a bunch of trenching. That is the kind of thing that even if you're willing to pay may have you say that it is just not worth it, compared to sticking some stakes in the ground. The market is interesting here; you have to have someone who will spend enough on a fancy lawnmower, but not so much that they would outsource it to a landscaper.
- kstenerud 12y agoWhy don't they just use the WIFI spectrum? Have legitimate messages so that it doesn't mess up existing systems, and send periodic pings whose radio signals the lawnmower can track. As an added bonus, you'd have a full communications network to talk to it with.
- gee_totes 12y agoHow will the lawnmower know where it is with just WiFi?
- kstenerud 12y agoThe same way it would know where it is with the 6240-6740 MHz beacons.
- oh_sigh 12y agoThe beacons probably output a continuous wave of a certain amplitude at that frequency. This would be classed as interference on at least the wifi spectrums so it is not allowed.
- kstenerud 12y agoThat's why you send actual 802.11 messages instead of a continuous wave.
- oh_sigh 12y agoAnd how do you determine your location based on an 802.11 message?
- kstenerud 12y agoThe same way you determine a location based on any regularly occurring radio signal (in fact, the same way they propose to determine location in their requested spectrum). The only reason to encode a proper 802.11 message would be so as not to interfere with other devices in range.
- jfabre 12y agoAm I the only one who thinks that iRobot is actually doing a very poor job with the Roomba cleaning algorithm? Why can't we have a robot that maps the surface and then cleans accordingly? I always get irritated when I look at my Roomba doing it's job.
- chiph 12y agoThe Neato vacuum does a back & forth pattern. But after living with a Roomba for a while, I've grown to appreciate their mostly-random pattern - it (eventually) makes sure that the nap of the carpet gets brushed in different directions, so your carpet doesn't look like the greens at the local golf course, with stripes in it.
- t0mbstone 12y agoLook at the Neato. I switched from Roomba to Neato and never looked back. It actually vacuums in an intelligent manner.
- Luc 12y agoBecause you need more processing power and sensors to first build the map, and then know where you are on the map.
- akramhussein 12y agoCheck out the upcoming Dyson 360 Eye - http://www.dyson360eye.com/ http://www.dyson360eye.com/ Disclaimer: I worked on it. Edit: To answer your question directly, you have 3 choices: 1. Don't map (or somewhat guess it) - Roomba. 2. Map first, then clean - Neato. 3. Map as you clean - Dyson 360 Eye. This is obviously a crude explanation but they get harder going down the list. If you are interested to know more, read up on SLAM (Simultaneous Localisation and Mapping) algorithms.
- robterrell 12y agoHow is it better than Roomba and Neato -- what's the cleaning algorithm? Does it map the space? etc. Edit: thanks, you answered while I was asking. That's a very interesting use case for SLAM. Does it re-map every use (i.e. today there's toys on the floor, but tomorrow there's not)? Does it store the point cloud or convert it to something more manageable? Are you licensing someone's SLAM library or did you roll your own?
- wppick 12y agoCan we just get rid of grass lawns already... replace it with something that looks good and doesn't need water and weekly cutting
- mrfusion 12y agoAgreed. I think it's so amazing we actually make up work for ourselves.
- oh_sigh 12y agoIt's not "making up work". People value a lawn, and put in work to maintain it. I find it funny that so many people on hacker news don't understand this concept. I'm sure a lot of people here would love to live in a concrete cube and drink soylent all day long while plugged into the internet on their oculus VR, but it's shocking to me that you can't comprehend how other people can value different things from yourself.
- mangodrunk 12y agoYou're presenting a false dichotomy. Sure, you may value a lawn, but it comes at a price with little return. There's environmental issues with lawns. No, that doesn't mean putting in concrete would be better. Here's some examples: http://www.sunset.com/garden/earth-friendly/lose-the-lawn-low-water-landscaping http://www.sunset.com/garden/earth-friendly/lose-the-lawn-lo... You can have a space filled with vegetables, fruits, shrubs etc.
- cpwright 12y agoThere is a lot of work involved in vegetables and fruits, and to some degree shrubs. Most anything that you like, deer will also like. You also can't as easily run around and play various games in something that has shrubs all over it. All of the examples you are showing are, in my opinion, trying to create an outdoor sitting room; which is not what many families want (in my case, I have a deck for that). I don't water my grass, and it isn't as pretty as some people's yards; but it is perfectly fine for playing in; and looks decent enough. The whole "sprinkler systems are bad" argument doesn't hold much water in suburban NY.
- kalleboo 12y agoHusqvarna have been making robotic lawnmowers since 1995, do they work differently? http://www.husqvarna.com/us/products/robotic-mowers/husqvarna-robotic-mowers-for-homeowners/ http://www.husqvarna.com/us/products/robotic-mowers/husqvarn...
- grandalf 12y agoIt's nice that RFI is being taken seriously. In many, many cases it is not: Noisy utility transformers, plasma TVs, poorly designed wall-wart supplies, touch lamps, and broadband over power lines, just to mention a few troublesome sources.
- mrfusion 12y agoWould GPS augmentation not work for this case? Don't airport runways use a system like that?
- mhb 12y agoIt would be nice to crack down on the lawnmower and, especially, leaf blower emissions in the 40Hz - 10KHz band. Where's the outrage?
- rebootthesystem 12y agoI don't think lawn bots will take off. I live in a nice neighborhood. I am 100% certain that a $500 to $3,000 lawn bot would be stolen within a month. Also, it is far cheaper and more efficient to pay a gardener for lawn maintenance. They take care of far more than just mowing the lawn.
- kleinsch 12y agoNot an expert, but isn't this the exact problem Bluetooth LE was designed to solve?
- thaumasiotes 12y ago> In a later response, iRobot added that NRAO observatories usually are surrounded by desert or forests, not environments where residential lawn equipment is used—a claim the NRAO called “silly.” I don't get what's silly about this. Astronomers are already well known for hating nearby human residences, because they give off visible light that makes it difficult to see the sky. Radio communications are the exact same thing at a different frequency. But we've got a strong system going of "astronomers can suck it, and if they want to look at the sky without our light getting in the way they can live up on a remote mountaintop where nobody else ever goes". And that's what they do, because imagine if someone could build a telescope near your house and then get laws passed saying you were prohibited from using electric lighting... ever. We like being able to see at night. Maybe we also like having automatic lawn maintenance. Why should astronomers get to stop us?
- TeMPOraL 12y agoBecause RF spectrum is big and there is really nothing forcing iRobot to use the same band radio astronomers need (who need that particular band because physics) - they're probably either too lazy to pick a different radio chip for their product or looking for a clever way to avoid the good solutions we have since like 70s, so they could patent something here.
- merrua 12y agoiRobot really should use a different frequency. Radio Telescopes should have the prior claim and are more useful and valuable.
- eru 12y agoThey even refrained from the clickbait of mentioning methanol in the headline: "... pissing off astronomers looking for a drink"
- tzs 12y agoiRobot's waiver request: http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/document/view?id=60001028220 http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/document/view?id=60001028220 NRAO comment on waiver request: http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/document/view?id=60001039394 http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/document/view?id=60001039394 iRobot reply to comment: http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/document/view?id=60001041441 http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/document/view?id=60001041441 NRAO reply to reply to comment: http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/document/view?id=60001042025 http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/document/view?id=60001042025 I see nothing in the iRobot filings that indicate why they cannot operate in the 5.725-5.875 GHz ISM band. Their system is based on simple time of flight measurements of the signal, and that should work just as well at 5.7-5.9 GHz as it would at 6.2-6.7 GHz.
- Qworg 12y agoI was wondering when this would come up. I led a team building autonomous lawnmowers for a major outdoor power equipment company. To answer some questions: Autonomous lawnmowers are remarkably safe - far safer than standard lawnmowers by a wide margin. iRobot's potential solution isn't a new one by any means - but the requirement of getting FCC approval for transmission is a rough requirement to overcome. GPS isn't sufficient and DGPS can't fix multipath problems. Bosch's lawnmower had GPS "straight line" algorithms in it and it had to be pulled because it was destroying people's lawns. Decawave is an interesting technology, but not what they're using. Fully autonomous lawnmowers have been around since the 1950's and haven't changed overmuch: http://file.vintageadbrowser.com/tg2i5rpfzmy0yj.jpg http://file.vintageadbrowser.com/tg2i5rpfzmy0yj.jpg