4 ms·

I think Python 3 suffers from attempting to be compatible with Python 2. It should have been a clean break with major repairs and reconstruction, as the origina

by smanek 17y ago

I think Python 3 suffers from attempting to be compatible with Python 2. It should have been a clean break with major repairs and reconstruction, as the original Python 3000 was intended to be. Hang the expense, let's make this language _right_, and Python 2 be damned. That worked really well for Perl 6 ;-)

SwellJoe 17y ago
I think I detect a hint of sarcasm. We don't actually know about Perl 6 yet. It's still got a few more months before it's feature complete enough for use in any general case (and performance will probably take another year or two after that to come up to snuff). But, I strongly suspect that both Perl 6 and Python 3 will be blips on the radar of language history (even while I expect to write quite a bit of code in both before then), as JavaScript will take the place of both for a large class of problems. But it'll be seven to ten years before that shift becomes apparent.
- DenisM 17y ago
  For that to happen we would have to have all the rich libraries and interops for javascript. Who could do such a thing?
  - SwellJoe 17y ago
    Who, indeed...
- chromatic 17y ago
  > JavaScript will take the place of both for a large class of problems. But it'll be seven to ten years before that shift becomes apparent. I'd believe that more if ECMAScript 4 hadn't fallen apart. I'm familiar with the PHP argument that design quality in a language doesn't necessarily harm adoption, but you do need some sort of extensibility to program more than a couple of thousand lines of code.
  - SwellJoe 17y ago
    I think you and I have talked about this in the past. From what I know of the process and where ECMAScript 4 was going, I am not of the opinion that anything particular great has been lost by its falling apart. JavaScript/ECMAScript evolution has not stopped just because a design-by-committee extension effort failed. There are a few issues with JavaScript for programming in the large, but they won't last. More importantly, perhaps, I think that even if they weren't being fixed at a rapid clip, JavaScript would still end up an extremely popular language, probably even the most popular language, for many classes of problem. Web applications, in particular, but most applications will be web applications in the future, so the planets are aligning for JavaScript. I will also add that damned near every major technology company has some sort of serious JavaScript effort underway, as we speak. Google, Apple, Adobe, Microsoft, are all extremely serious about JavaScript. Several well-funded teams are building JavaScript engines, some of which are not tied to a particular browser or limited to only running within a browser. Perl and Python will never have that kind of money behind them. Java was in the same position 15 years ago, but it was never a particularly good language for the Perl and Python market (as evidenced by the fact that dynamic language programmers tend to hate, or merely tolerate Java). JavaScript, on the other hand, not only had incredible corporate backing, it also has a large amount of nerd mindshare. Most of the Perl, Python, Ruby, etc. hackers I know don't mind working in JavaScript, and find it a pretty nice language. I certainly enjoy it. Sure, it is lacking a lot of niceties of those other languages, but with the kind of money and effort being spent on JavaScript, it won't be long before those issues disappear. So, while Java took over the programming marketplace for several years, to the sound of much gnashing of teeth by dynamic language programmers, it never really won mindshare among the folks who programmed for enjoyment (FOSS, in particular). I don't think JavaScript will run into those impediments. It's a good language, and a few nitpicks about missing features or misfeatures aren't going to stop it from being a juggernaut that rolls over most other dynamic languages in terms of popularity.
    - chromatic 17y ago
      > ... with the kind of money and effort being spent on JavaScript, it won't be long before those issues disappear. I thought that too, but Microsoft's "You can't break the Intranet!" argument was enough to kill ECMAScript 4. I lost a lot of faith in JavaScript's near term future then. In the interest of having a more productive discussion, what concrete signs give you hope that time and money and effort will address JavaScript's missing features?

by smanek 17y ago

SwellJoe 17y ago

I think I detect a hint of sarcasm. We don't actually know about Perl 6 yet. It's still got a few more months before it's feature complete enough for use in any general case (and performance will probably take another year or two after that to come up to snuff). But, I strongly suspect that both Perl 6 and Python 3 will be blips on the radar of language history (even while I expect to write quite a bit of code in both before then), as JavaScript will take the place of both for a large class of problems. But it'll be seven to ten years before that shift becomes apparent.

DenisM 17y ago
For that to happen we would have to have all the rich libraries and interops for javascript. Who could do such a thing?
- SwellJoe 17y ago
  Who, indeed...
chromatic 17y ago
> JavaScript will take the place of both for a large class of problems. But it'll be seven to ten years before that shift becomes apparent. I'd believe that more if ECMAScript 4 hadn't fallen apart. I'm familiar with the PHP argument that design quality in a language doesn't necessarily harm adoption, but you do need some sort of extensibility to program more than a couple of thousand lines of code.
- SwellJoe 17y ago
  I think you and I have talked about this in the past. From what I know of the process and where ECMAScript 4 was going, I am not of the opinion that anything particular great has been lost by its falling apart. JavaScript/ECMAScript evolution has not stopped just because a design-by-committee extension effort failed. There are a few issues with JavaScript for programming in the large, but they won't last. More importantly, perhaps, I think that even if they weren't being fixed at a rapid clip, JavaScript would still end up an extremely popular language, probably even the most popular language, for many classes of problem. Web applications, in particular, but most applications will be web applications in the future, so the planets are aligning for JavaScript. I will also add that damned near every major technology company has some sort of serious JavaScript effort underway, as we speak. Google, Apple, Adobe, Microsoft, are all extremely serious about JavaScript. Several well-funded teams are building JavaScript engines, some of which are not tied to a particular browser or limited to only running within a browser. Perl and Python will never have that kind of money behind them. Java was in the same position 15 years ago, but it was never a particularly good language for the Perl and Python market (as evidenced by the fact that dynamic language programmers tend to hate, or merely tolerate Java). JavaScript, on the other hand, not only had incredible corporate backing, it also has a large amount of nerd mindshare. Most of the Perl, Python, Ruby, etc. hackers I know don't mind working in JavaScript, and find it a pretty nice language. I certainly enjoy it. Sure, it is lacking a lot of niceties of those other languages, but with the kind of money and effort being spent on JavaScript, it won't be long before those issues disappear. So, while Java took over the programming marketplace for several years, to the sound of much gnashing of teeth by dynamic language programmers, it never really won mindshare among the folks who programmed for enjoyment (FOSS, in particular). I don't think JavaScript will run into those impediments. It's a good language, and a few nitpicks about missing features or misfeatures aren't going to stop it from being a juggernaut that rolls over most other dynamic languages in terms of popularity.
  - chromatic 17y ago
    > ... with the kind of money and effort being spent on JavaScript, it won't be long before those issues disappear. I thought that too, but Microsoft's "You can't break the Intranet!" argument was enough to kill ECMAScript 4. I lost a lot of faith in JavaScript's near term future then. In the interest of having a more productive discussion, what concrete signs give you hope that time and money and effort will address JavaScript's missing features?