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I'm a cyclist in the U.S., but have no problem admitting that probably 90% of the time, the cyclist is at fault. I've ridden bikes in Europe with real bike lane

I'm a cyclist in the U.S., but have no problem admitting that probably 90% of the time, the cyclist is at fault. I've ridden bikes in Europe with real bike lanes—U.S. urban cycling culture is not Dutch cycling culture. There is not a culture of responsible cycling. We don't have real bike lanes. We don't stop for red lights. We don't stop for pedestrians. As a result, the U.S. also does not have many drivers or pedestrians that are sympathetic to cyclists. In general, I am ashamed of my fellow cyclists in the U.S..

Nrsolis 12y ago
Come to NYC. We have Citibike here and messengers and delivery people on bikes. And it's horrible. The bicyclists ROUTINELY violate nearly every sane traffic law on the books. They go the wrong way against traffic, refuse to stop for stop lights or pedestrians in crosswalks, ride on sidewalks, have few if any safety features like headlights or taillights, and on and on. If cyclists would simply follow the traffic laws that already exist, there would be many fewer deadly accidents between cyclists and pedestrians (yes, you read that right) and cyclists and cars.
- terravion 12y ago
  In New York cars routinely violate every law on parking, they break the speed limit on every block, change lanes without signaling, and block intersections. If cars would simply follow the laws that already exist there would be many fewer deadly accidents between cars and people who die when hit.
  - kika 12y ago
    If your thought was to object to the statement you're replying to then probably it went wrong.
  - Nrsolis 12y ago
    The traffic congestion in NYC keeps the speeds down, not to mention the potholes in the road. But a cyclist running a red light is so commonplace in NYC that they think that it's not even a ticketable offense. http://nypost.com/2014/09/24/most-cyclists-are-still-ignoring-red-lights-despite-nypd-crackdown/ http://nypost.com/2014/09/24/most-cyclists-are-still-ignorin...
  - baddox 12y ago
    That's probably also true, and doesn't contradict the statement you are parodying.
- gorekee 12y ago
  > If cyclists would simply follow the traffic laws that already exist Yes, but bicycles are no cars. So the city need also to come up with bike lanes and adequate regulations. It is too easy to blame the participant which has no real place in traffic.
  - santaclaus 12y ago
    It is amazing what you find in bike lanes in NYC [1]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzE-IMaegzQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzE-IMaegzQ
- thraxil 12y ago
  According to Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-09-23/pedestrian-cyclist-crash-deaths-rare-as-collision-suits http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-09-23/pedestrian...), there were 11 bicycle on pedestrian fatalities in NYC between 1996 and 2005. "There were no pedestrian deaths from cyclists in 2010, 2011 or 2012, according to city data." I live in the Netherlands now but lived in NYC for 15 years and biked a lot while I was there. I'm not going to argue that NYC cyclists are perfect and follow all the traffic laws all the time, but at the same time, they're really not much different than Dutch cyclists. When it comes down to it, cyclists do what they have to do to get where they're going and avoid getting hit by cars. Some differences I have noticed: in the Netherlands, it's explicitly allowed for cyclists to bike against traffic on one way streets. Many more bikes in the Netherlands do have lights because 1) it's a 60 EUR fine otherwise and they enforce it and 2) the heavy dutch style bikes just tend to have them built in, whereas on the typical NYC bike, they're externally mounted and will get stolen off your bike in a heartbeat. The Dutch actually can be very aggressive cyclists, cruising through red lights when there's no traffic coming, passing suddenly and closely, flying through crowds of people, squeezing past trams, and generally inducing mild heart attacks in someone like me watching, but they're also extremely skilled since almost all of them have been biking nearly everywhere they go nearly every day of their lives since they were small children. They pull off complex maneuvers that I would never dream of and do it while texting. The final difference is that pedestrians here tend to be a bit more aware and will be careful to stay out of the bike paths.
birken 12y ago
I'm a cyclist and I completely disagree with this. I've biked thousands and thousands of miles in SF, and I think probably 80 or 90% of cyclists are responsible and law abiding. There are maybe 10 or 20 percent who are bad, run red lights and do other crazy shit. They are not the majority. And if you want further proof, just read the list of bicycle fatalities in SF [1] and see who is at fault. Most of the time it is the vehicle. And guess what happens when a vehicle is ruled at fault and kills a cyclist? Nothing [2]: > Unfortunately, the lack of charges in this tragic case is par for the course in our justice system which continually fails to prosecute traffic cases as the crimes that they are. Four people were killed while biking in San Francisco last year, and no charges were filed against the drivers in any of these cases. The myth that all cyclists are irresponsible and reckless is untrue and needs to die. Most cyclists are drivers and thus can emphasize with drivers and understand and predict what they are doing. However, most drivers are not cyclists, and often think a cyclist is doing something wrong when they are not. Or maybe they only notice when cyclists are doing something bad and their selective memory is reinforced. The point is, most drivers are good and most cyclists are good. A little more empathy on both sides would go a long way towards improving the situation, and untrue claims like "90% of the time the cyclist is at fault" is not helping. 1: https://medium.com/improving-our-cities/a-list-of-people-killed-while-riding-a-bicycle-in-san-francisco-1456bbd017d9 https://medium.com/improving-our-cities/a-list-of-people-kil... 2: https://www.sfbike.org/news/statement-on-lack-of-charges-in-traffic-fatalities/ https://www.sfbike.org/news/statement-on-lack-of-charges-in-...
- pandaman 12y ago
  Maybe cyclists in SF are so special, but in LA I have yet to see a cyclist stopping at a stop sign. I walk to/from work about 2 miles each way and see about a dozen cyclists every day. Sure, cars some times do not stop at the sign either but I don't see this happening nearly as often as I see cyclists just happily cycling through stop without even an attempt to slow down. And I see much more cars than bikes.
  - malka 12y ago
    They are the same in France. Never saw a single cyclist stop at a red light.
regularfry 12y ago
Is that cause or effect, though? The environment is hostile to cyclists, so do you only get those who will be as hostile as they need to be in return to survive?
- popopje 12y ago
  I work as a messenger and yes - the way to avoid being turned into (the main issue, if you are on the inside of someone who can't see you or someone doesn't signal) is to push in front of and into the flow of traffic. I have no doubt that it is concerning and annoying to drivers, but they have then seen me.
danielwarna 12y ago
It's funny how the exact same "Bicyclists don't respect any rules and are always at fault"-attitude exists here in Finland. Yet it turns out that drivers are at fault in 70% of all bike-car crashes.
- ptaipale 12y ago
  Note, however, that few of (fatal) accidents are with cars. Cars do injure bicyclists, but lorries and buses are the deadly ones. For some reason, cyclists focus on opposing cars, not on reducing bike-LGV accidents.
angersock 12y ago
I commute to work every day on my bike, and I live in Houston, which is probably about as car-friendly a city as you can get. Most of the cyclists I see are pretty well-behaved, stopping at lights and behaving nicely. The drivers, though, have no idea what to do with this strange two-wheeled human-vehicle centaurish thing which randomly appears on the road with them. They'll swerve out into oncoming lanes of traffic if I'm by the side of the road. They'll pull to a near crawl and form a column behind me. They'll speed up and buzz my bike going 40 mph. They'll honk at me as they come up behind me, pass me, and drive past. One nice lady tried to run me down in her SUV because I had the gall to pass on her right. And if there're two (two!) bikes sharing a lane? They'll completely lose their minds at the sight of such a miracle. Let's use hand signals, and show which way we're going--haha, just kidding, no drivers in the city seem to understand the difference between "I'm turning left", "I'm turning right", "I'm about to brake", and "being on a bike is so awesome I'm just going to flail my left arm around". Also, the roads here are just barely good enough for cars--on bikes, you'll merrily eat a pothole and go flying, or bend a rim, or whatever. The sidewalks are even worse, otherwise we'd be on those. And then there are the pedestrians! If drivers are clueless, people that are ambling around or jogging are malevolently stupid. Call out your passing side ahead of time, and they stop and crane their head around trying to see if God himself was talking to them--instead of, you know, moving out of the way in the indicated direction. Then there are the uppity joggers who will get in your face for sharing a dirt path ~4m wide. The biking culture is getting better here, but it can really grate on one's nerves.
- oska 12y ago
  > And then there are the pedestrians! If drivers are clueless, people that are ambling around or jogging are malevolently stupid. Call out your passing side ahead of time, and they stop and crane their head around trying to see if God himself was talking to them--instead of, you know, moving out of the way in the indicated direction. Then there are the uppity joggers who will get in your face for sharing a dirt path ~4m wide. You completely lost me with this paragraph as your attitude to pedestrians is almost an exact reflection of the problematic one that many drivers have to cyclists.
  - 12y ago
Arnt 12y ago
Aren't you confusing cause and effect? The Dutch >50% rule was introduced after a randomish clump of accidents in which adults in cars survived and children on bicycles died. There were many mortal accidents year after year, a lot of Dutch felt that car drivers weren't behaving sympathetically, and that particularly gruesome clump of accidents drove public opinion far enough to pass the >50% law. THEN the culture changed, AFTER the change in rules.
mercer 12y ago
Cycling locals in Amsterdam are far from 'responsible'. People cross with red lights constantly, to the point where there is a social pressure to conform or be seen as either a tourist or just annoyingly in the way. People actively scare pedestrians by passing them close by and at high speeds (I've done this in... lesser moods, and I'm not proud of it). The reason this causes relatively few accidents is because people driving cars in cities are extra careful. Because of this I'm inclined to believe that the safety of cyclists is a result of regulation much more than 'responsible' cycling.

Nrsolis 12y ago

Come to NYC. We have Citibike here and messengers and delivery people on bikes. And it's horrible. The bicyclists ROUTINELY violate nearly every sane traffic law on the books. They go the wrong way against traffic, refuse to stop for stop lights or pedestrians in crosswalks, ride on sidewalks, have few if any safety features like headlights or taillights, and on and on. If cyclists would simply follow the traffic laws that already exist, there would be many fewer deadly accidents between cyclists and pedestrians (yes, you read that right) and cyclists and cars.

terravion 12y ago
In New York cars routinely violate every law on parking, they break the speed limit on every block, change lanes without signaling, and block intersections. If cars would simply follow the laws that already exist there would be many fewer deadly accidents between cars and people who die when hit.
- kika 12y ago
  If your thought was to object to the statement you're replying to then probably it went wrong.
- Nrsolis 12y ago
  The traffic congestion in NYC keeps the speeds down, not to mention the potholes in the road. But a cyclist running a red light is so commonplace in NYC that they think that it's not even a ticketable offense. http://nypost.com/2014/09/24/most-cyclists-are-still-ignoring-red-lights-despite-nypd-crackdown/ http://nypost.com/2014/09/24/most-cyclists-are-still-ignorin...
- baddox 12y ago
  That's probably also true, and doesn't contradict the statement you are parodying.
gorekee 12y ago
> If cyclists would simply follow the traffic laws that already exist Yes, but bicycles are no cars. So the city need also to come up with bike lanes and adequate regulations. It is too easy to blame the participant which has no real place in traffic.
- santaclaus 12y ago
  It is amazing what you find in bike lanes in NYC [1]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzE-IMaegzQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzE-IMaegzQ
thraxil 12y ago
According to Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-09-23/pedestrian-cyclist-crash-deaths-rare-as-collision-suits http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-09-23/pedestrian...), there were 11 bicycle on pedestrian fatalities in NYC between 1996 and 2005. "There were no pedestrian deaths from cyclists in 2010, 2011 or 2012, according to city data." I live in the Netherlands now but lived in NYC for 15 years and biked a lot while I was there. I'm not going to argue that NYC cyclists are perfect and follow all the traffic laws all the time, but at the same time, they're really not much different than Dutch cyclists. When it comes down to it, cyclists do what they have to do to get where they're going and avoid getting hit by cars. Some differences I have noticed: in the Netherlands, it's explicitly allowed for cyclists to bike against traffic on one way streets. Many more bikes in the Netherlands do have lights because 1) it's a 60 EUR fine otherwise and they enforce it and 2) the heavy dutch style bikes just tend to have them built in, whereas on the typical NYC bike, they're externally mounted and will get stolen off your bike in a heartbeat. The Dutch actually can be very aggressive cyclists, cruising through red lights when there's no traffic coming, passing suddenly and closely, flying through crowds of people, squeezing past trams, and generally inducing mild heart attacks in someone like me watching, but they're also extremely skilled since almost all of them have been biking nearly everywhere they go nearly every day of their lives since they were small children. They pull off complex maneuvers that I would never dream of and do it while texting. The final difference is that pedestrians here tend to be a bit more aware and will be careful to stay out of the bike paths.

birken 12y ago

I'm a cyclist and I completely disagree with this. I've biked thousands and thousands of miles in SF, and I think probably 80 or 90% of cyclists are responsible and law abiding. There are maybe 10 or 20 percent who are bad, run red lights and do other crazy shit. They are not the majority. And if you want further proof, just read the list of bicycle fatalities in SF [1] and see who is at fault. Most of the time it is the vehicle. And guess what happens when a vehicle is ruled at fault and kills a cyclist? Nothing [2]: > Unfortunately, the lack of charges in this tragic case is par for the course in our justice system which continually fails to prosecute traffic cases as the crimes that they are. Four people were killed while biking in San Francisco last year, and no charges were filed against the drivers in any of these cases. The myth that all cyclists are irresponsible and reckless is untrue and needs to die. Most cyclists are drivers and thus can emphasize with drivers and understand and predict what they are doing. However, most drivers are not cyclists, and often think a cyclist is doing something wrong when they are not. Or maybe they only notice when cyclists are doing something bad and their selective memory is reinforced. The point is, most drivers are good and most cyclists are good. A little more empathy on both sides would go a long way towards improving the situation, and untrue claims like "90% of the time the cyclist is at fault" is not helping. 1: https://medium.com/improving-our-cities/a-list-of-people-killed-while-riding-a-bicycle-in-san-francisco-1456bbd017d9 https://medium.com/improving-our-cities/a-list-of-people-kil... 2: https://www.sfbike.org/news/statement-on-lack-of-charges-in-traffic-fatalities/ https://www.sfbike.org/news/statement-on-lack-of-charges-in-...

pandaman 12y ago
Maybe cyclists in SF are so special, but in LA I have yet to see a cyclist stopping at a stop sign. I walk to/from work about 2 miles each way and see about a dozen cyclists every day. Sure, cars some times do not stop at the sign either but I don't see this happening nearly as often as I see cyclists just happily cycling through stop without even an attempt to slow down. And I see much more cars than bikes.
- malka 12y ago
  They are the same in France. Never saw a single cyclist stop at a red light.

regularfry 12y ago

Is that cause or effect, though? The environment is hostile to cyclists, so do you only get those who will be as hostile as they need to be in return to survive?

popopje 12y ago
I work as a messenger and yes - the way to avoid being turned into (the main issue, if you are on the inside of someone who can't see you or someone doesn't signal) is to push in front of and into the flow of traffic. I have no doubt that it is concerning and annoying to drivers, but they have then seen me.

danielwarna 12y ago

It's funny how the exact same "Bicyclists don't respect any rules and are always at fault"-attitude exists here in Finland. Yet it turns out that drivers are at fault in 70% of all bike-car crashes.

ptaipale 12y ago
Note, however, that few of (fatal) accidents are with cars. Cars do injure bicyclists, but lorries and buses are the deadly ones. For some reason, cyclists focus on opposing cars, not on reducing bike-LGV accidents.

angersock 12y ago

I commute to work every day on my bike, and I live in Houston, which is probably about as car-friendly a city as you can get. Most of the cyclists I see are pretty well-behaved, stopping at lights and behaving nicely. The drivers, though, have no idea what to do with this strange two-wheeled human-vehicle centaurish thing which randomly appears on the road with them. They'll swerve out into oncoming lanes of traffic if I'm by the side of the road. They'll pull to a near crawl and form a column behind me. They'll speed up and buzz my bike going 40 mph. They'll honk at me as they come up behind me, pass me, and drive past. One nice lady tried to run me down in her SUV because I had the gall to pass on her right. And if there're two (two!) bikes sharing a lane? They'll completely lose their minds at the sight of such a miracle. Let's use hand signals, and show which way we're going--haha, just kidding, no drivers in the city seem to understand the difference between "I'm turning left", "I'm turning right", "I'm about to brake", and "being on a bike is so awesome I'm just going to flail my left arm around". Also, the roads here are just barely good enough for cars--on bikes, you'll merrily eat a pothole and go flying, or bend a rim, or whatever. The sidewalks are even worse, otherwise we'd be on those. And then there are the pedestrians! If drivers are clueless, people that are ambling around or jogging are malevolently stupid. Call out your passing side ahead of time, and they stop and crane their head around trying to see if God himself was talking to them--instead of, you know, moving out of the way in the indicated direction. Then there are the uppity joggers who will get in your face for sharing a dirt path ~4m wide. The biking culture is getting better here, but it can really grate on one's nerves.

oska 12y ago
> And then there are the pedestrians! If drivers are clueless, people that are ambling around or jogging are malevolently stupid. Call out your passing side ahead of time, and they stop and crane their head around trying to see if God himself was talking to them--instead of, you know, moving out of the way in the indicated direction. Then there are the uppity joggers who will get in your face for sharing a dirt path ~4m wide. You completely lost me with this paragraph as your attitude to pedestrians is almost an exact reflection of the problematic one that many drivers have to cyclists.
- 12y ago

Arnt 12y ago

Aren't you confusing cause and effect? The Dutch >50% rule was introduced after a randomish clump of accidents in which adults in cars survived and children on bicycles died. There were many mortal accidents year after year, a lot of Dutch felt that car drivers weren't behaving sympathetically, and that particularly gruesome clump of accidents drove public opinion far enough to pass the >50% law. THEN the culture changed, AFTER the change in rules.

mercer 12y ago

Cycling locals in Amsterdam are far from 'responsible'. People cross with red lights constantly, to the point where there is a social pressure to conform or be seen as either a tourist or just annoyingly in the way. People actively scare pedestrians by passing them close by and at high speeds (I've done this in... lesser moods, and I'm not proud of it). The reason this causes relatively few accidents is because people driving cars in cities are extra careful. Because of this I'm inclined to believe that the safety of cyclists is a result of regulation much more than 'responsible' cycling.