8 ms·

Yes, there's an Underpants Gnomes quality to this sort of career advice. It's not bad, but there's a giant "?" in the middle that nobody can really help you wit

by chc 12y ago

Yes, there's an Underpants Gnomes quality to this sort of career advice. It's not bad, but there's a giant "?" in the middle that nobody can really help you with, which seems to involve accumulating a huge base of clients beating down your door.

sarciszewski 12y ago
Personal and business relationships vary from person to person. I guess the assumption is that, if you are skilled enough at engineering and marketing, you will find yourself getting clients and make money hand over fist. Unfortunately for me, I'm purely a technology guy, not a people person.
- roel_v 12y ago
  "Unfortunately for me, I'm purely a technology guy, not a people person." This is bullshit. People can change. You can change yourself. 'I only do tech' is an excuse to not have to go outside your comfort zone. Of course it's a big change. Of course it's scary. Of course you don't know exactly how to get from A to B. But just giving up with a 'this is how I was born' is defeatism.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
tptacek 12y ago
Serious question: Patrick was about as well known on the Business of Software message boards as you are on HN when his consulting career started. Those boards no longer exist and were always smaller than HN. Prior to consulting he held what is probably the lowest- status job in software development. What do you think the secret ???'s were for him?
- chc 12y ago
  Well, if I knew what went there, it wouldn't be a question mark. My best guess is "luck," though I feel like that's kind of a facile answer. I don't have a better one, at any rate. What do you think it is?
  - tptacek 12y ago
    The most important two secrets to sales: know how to qualify a deal, and ask for the sale.
    - chc 12y ago
      That's good advice, but the problem is that the ??? comes at the point where your only sources of prospects are morally equivalent to oDesk. No matter how good you are at qualifying and closing deals, it does no good if deals.filter(:is_qualified?) == []. Based on Patrick's account, it sounds like good consulting work mostly just came to him — he commented late in his consulting career how strange it was having to actually go out and hit people up for work lately. You do need to close the deal when you find a good prospect, but we're still jumping over the ???, which is where you get that steady stream of good prospects in the first place. That's why my best guess is "luck" — because I've never heard anyone say anything about what they did beyond, "Eh, I found good clients and became a successful consultant" or "I did not find good clients and struggled in my consulting career."
  - imron 12y ago
    Some people would argue that for the most part you make your own luck.
    - chc 12y ago
      I suppose this is true, but also mostly irrelevant. If I am faced with two doors, behind one a car and the other a goat, I am technically making my own luck when I pick a door, but there's still nothing I can do to improve my chances of getting the car past 50%.
      - 12y ago
- davidw 12y ago
  The secret sauce is that he's a good developer, and really good at "engineered marketing" in a way few people are. In addition to communicating really well.
  - S4M 12y ago
    He also seems very good at marketing himself - as a proof, that so many people here know and talk about him - and at networking; he bought lots of coffees to strangers who asked to meet him in Tokyo - including me.
    - davidw 12y ago
      From everything I can tell, "marketing himself" is mostly just patio11 being genuinely kind and helpful.
      - S4M 12y ago
        And also participating a lot on forums and blogging. If he gives free advices to hundreds of freelancer/programmers and ten make it into a multi millions company, that's ten potential clients for Patrick.
- mattmanser 12y ago
  You're making stuff up now, patio11 was a major celeb on here way before he quit. Here's the 200+ point annual report he did with story of him quitting his day job: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2018816 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2018816 I'm sure if you look the previous reports up they'd be similarly high ranked.
  - tptacek 12y ago
    If you actually read that post, you'll see it talks about how he got started, and that it also contains a clue as to why I think I know a bit about that. In any case, I'm not sure what this has to do with Patrick's "underpants gnome" secret. Is the trick "have a high-karma HN account"?
roel_v 12y ago
Actually, that '??' part is only '??' for engineers, who generally don't know how to drum up work. There is a process to getting business, it's called 'sales'. Take a reputable sales class (3 or 5 days or so). It'll set you back $5k-$10k, and it'll push you way outside your comfort zone, but it works. Getting business isn't that hard: first, you identify your customers. Then you think of a way how to find those people/organizations. Then you contact them, and set up appointments. Lastly, you convince them (during the meeting) to buy your product (where 'product' can be software you've already written, software you'll write or man hours you'll spend working for them). The above of course skips over many details. But the point is - selling stuff is not 'luck' or 'magic'. There is a process, although of course it has to be tweaked every time. All you have to do is learn it.

by chc 12y ago

sarciszewski 12y ago

Personal and business relationships vary from person to person. I guess the assumption is that, if you are skilled enough at engineering and marketing, you will find yourself getting clients and make money hand over fist. Unfortunately for me, I'm purely a technology guy, not a people person.

roel_v 12y ago
"Unfortunately for me, I'm purely a technology guy, not a people person." This is bullshit. People can change. You can change yourself. 'I only do tech' is an excuse to not have to go outside your comfort zone. Of course it's a big change. Of course it's scary. Of course you don't know exactly how to get from A to B. But just giving up with a 'this is how I was born' is defeatism.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]

tptacek 12y ago

Serious question: Patrick was about as well known on the Business of Software message boards as you are on HN when his consulting career started. Those boards no longer exist and were always smaller than HN. Prior to consulting he held what is probably the lowest- status job in software development. What do you think the secret ???'s were for him?

chc 12y ago
Well, if I knew what went there, it wouldn't be a question mark. My best guess is "luck," though I feel like that's kind of a facile answer. I don't have a better one, at any rate. What do you think it is?
- tptacek 12y ago
  The most important two secrets to sales: know how to qualify a deal, and ask for the sale.
  - chc 12y ago
    That's good advice, but the problem is that the ??? comes at the point where your only sources of prospects are morally equivalent to oDesk. No matter how good you are at qualifying and closing deals, it does no good if deals.filter(:is_qualified?) == []. Based on Patrick's account, it sounds like good consulting work mostly just came to him — he commented late in his consulting career how strange it was having to actually go out and hit people up for work lately. You do need to close the deal when you find a good prospect, but we're still jumping over the ???, which is where you get that steady stream of good prospects in the first place. That's why my best guess is "luck" — because I've never heard anyone say anything about what they did beyond, "Eh, I found good clients and became a successful consultant" or "I did not find good clients and struggled in my consulting career."
- imron 12y ago
  Some people would argue that for the most part you make your own luck.
  - chc 12y ago
    I suppose this is true, but also mostly irrelevant. If I am faced with two doors, behind one a car and the other a goat, I am technically making my own luck when I pick a door, but there's still nothing I can do to improve my chances of getting the car past 50%.
    - 12y ago
davidw 12y ago
The secret sauce is that he's a good developer, and really good at "engineered marketing" in a way few people are. In addition to communicating really well.
- S4M 12y ago
  He also seems very good at marketing himself - as a proof, that so many people here know and talk about him - and at networking; he bought lots of coffees to strangers who asked to meet him in Tokyo - including me.
  - davidw 12y ago
    From everything I can tell, "marketing himself" is mostly just patio11 being genuinely kind and helpful.
    - S4M 12y ago
      And also participating a lot on forums and blogging. If he gives free advices to hundreds of freelancer/programmers and ten make it into a multi millions company, that's ten potential clients for Patrick.
mattmanser 12y ago
You're making stuff up now, patio11 was a major celeb on here way before he quit. Here's the 200+ point annual report he did with story of him quitting his day job: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2018816 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2018816 I'm sure if you look the previous reports up they'd be similarly high ranked.
- tptacek 12y ago
  If you actually read that post, you'll see it talks about how he got started, and that it also contains a clue as to why I think I know a bit about that. In any case, I'm not sure what this has to do with Patrick's "underpants gnome" secret. Is the trick "have a high-karma HN account"?

roel_v 12y ago

Actually, that '??' part is only '??' for engineers, who generally don't know how to drum up work. There is a process to getting business, it's called 'sales'. Take a reputable sales class (3 or 5 days or so). It'll set you back $5k-$10k, and it'll push you way outside your comfort zone, but it works. Getting business isn't that hard: first, you identify your customers. Then you think of a way how to find those people/organizations. Then you contact them, and set up appointments. Lastly, you convince them (during the meeting) to buy your product (where 'product' can be software you've already written, software you'll write or man hours you'll spend working for them). The above of course skips over many details. But the point is - selling stuff is not 'luck' or 'magic'. There is a process, although of course it has to be tweaked every time. All you have to do is learn it.