6 ms·

Nootropic Brain Drugs Rise in Popularity for Today’s Corporate Climbers

33 points by geoffwoo 11y ago

serve_yay 11y ago
To each his own. I prefer drugs typically associated with decreased work ability and increased aptitude for fun.
jheriko 11y ago
people who want to get ahead will do their best to cheat without getting caught, and will take unreasonable risks... doing whatever it takes to succeed. this is not new. personally i prefer to dumb myself down with a bit of weed... :)
MichaelGG 11y ago
This further illustrates how terribly unfair modern medical systems are. Want to change your brain chemistry? You've gotta do a song-and-dance for a doctor. Who might either hate "addicts", or be terrified of the DEA. Do a poor job lying and try again? Oh, now you're "doctor shopping", which some want to criminalize. Have an in with a doctor or have enough money, well then it's no problem. (Sure, money buys a lot of leeway in everything, but this is a fairly basic freedom.) I'm not an American but from what I was taught about folks like Ben Franklin, I think they'd be shocked to know it has become illegal to determine your own treatment.
- Gatsky 11y ago
  This is a thorny topic. The trouble is that when a large number of people take a drug, rare but horrific side effects may manifest. How do you factor this in to deciding an appropriate level of regulation? Is it fair that we permit easily accessible experimentation with psychoactive or nootropic substances, when someone downs a few too many, has a psychotic episode and drowns his children? Or has a fatal allergic reaction? Or drives their car off a bridge because they have been awake for 96 hours taking one of these products? That may sound outlandish, but eventually something like this will happen to someone if enough people take it. So I don't know if you can just couch it in terms of personal freedoms... it seems a bit more complicated than that. I don't know what the answer is, but pretty sure it isn't just 'Let people do whatever they want.' At least with heroin and cocaine people have some idea about the risks, even if they decide to ignore them...
  - MichaelGG 11y ago
    How do we handle alcohol? You tell people that modifying yourself isn't an excuse for committing crimes. And follow up and enforce that. Making it a crime to use chemicals on your own mind is absurd. With heroin, the biggest risk is the fact it's illegal, thus preventing you from obtaining clean, known-quantity medication. If Tylenol was sold on the streets, with pills ranging from 100mg to 1000mg, we'd have a LOT more liver toxicity cases than we do. It's not like using opiates in a correct manner leads to death on a routine basis.
    - Gatsky 11y ago
      1. Countless lives have been destroyed by alcohol. Busted up families, people killed by drunk drivers, children maimed by fetal alcohol syndrome, abused wives, husbands and children, fried brains, fried livers and across multiple generations... Why would we want to repeat that experience? If alcohol were invented today it would never be in widespread use like it is now. It's become a lifestyle thing because of thousands of years of culture and legacy. It's a prime example of why your approach is a terrible idea. 2. Heroin is a highly addictive substance, that will kill you in sufficient qualities. You don't see that as a problem?? Even if it were cleanly packaged with a black label, people would still take too much and die from it. Cute example with Tylenol, but doesn't cause dependence and withdrawal. Opiates are given to people with pain, where they have a fundamentally different physiological effect.
      - MichaelGG 11y ago
        My comparison to Tylenol is apt. If you bought pills thinking they were ~100mg, but they were 10x that, you would soon find yourself with a broken liver. To be clear Tylenol will kill you in sufficient quantities, amounts you're likely to easily by from a store. Opiates do not have a "fundamentally different" effect if you're in pain. I think people like saying that about opiates and stimulants so as to excuse people that "need" it. And yes, personal freedom is worth people choosing to rip apart families.
        11y ago
yojo 11y ago
Is it just me that worries about a race to the bottom with brain hacking? Assume some combination of nootropics/transcranial stimulation/etc gives you a short-term edge for unknown (or known) long term risk. If you're a profit-maximizing employer, would you rather hire the person who performs better today, or the person who is looking out for their own long-term safety? Or if you're a startup founder competing against a bunch of doped up super-brains, how strong must the incentive be to join the dark side? I see similarities with professional sports, where athletic associations are always playing Whac-A-Mole with performance enhancing drugs, and top earning athletes routinely get chastised for doping. Should we expect outcomes in knowledge work to be different if brain hacking proves as effective?
Quizz 11y ago
How rampant is nootropic use in Silicon Valley?
- omgitstom 11y ago
  It will be hard to measure effectively. When you see the breadth of chemicals considered nootropics, you will see why.
  - mattmanser 11y ago
    You're looking for breadth, not breathe.
    - omgitstom 11y ago
      Thanks! fixed...
  - TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
    Lots of people drink strong coffee and such, for instance.
borgia 11y ago
I suppose it's only natural that people are resorting to these when huge swathes of the American youth are being prescribed Adderall and similar and gaining a competitive edge with them over those who don't have access to them. I previously looked at sourcing modafinil but ultimately decided against it due the the sources available looking dodgy, a lack of clarity in the laws around it, etc. As more reputable companies emerge in the sector I think I may well end up giving the products a go.
- HockeyPlayer 11y ago
  I've heard good things about www.modafinilcat.com
  - mahouse 11y ago
    That's gotta be the most American thing ever. A .com website that sells you drugs so you can work harder. And the website is designed to look like they are selling you lollies.
    - TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
      I can't say being marketed nootropics with an almost LSD-esque site really inspires confidence in me.
      - mrsteveman1 11y ago
        I really expected to see nyan cat bouncing across the screen while waiting for that site to load. I'm not sure if that would have been better or worse.
  - mrmondo 11y ago
    I too have heard good things... (Says no more)
  - lumpypua 11y ago
    I've had 4 or 5 successful orders. Great customer service too.
this_user 11y ago
The one thing that really interests me about this is the long-term damage you are doing to yourself. There appear to be two types of stimulants. There are the legal ones like caffeine that have a moderate effect and are not significantly unhealthy unless consumed in extreme quantities. And there are the illegal ones like amphetamines that have a significant effect, but will also cause a great deal of harm the more you use them. So, there seems to be a clear correlation between the size of the effect and the harm done. This then begs the question where these new substances stand. Are they barely more than caffeine and mostly harmless? Is maybe the placebo effect playing a role in making them appear more effective to the user than they truly are? But if they do have a significant effect, at what price does it come? The human body needs rest, that is a pretty well-established fact. It seems unlikely that these substances would be able to change this fundamental principle. What does seem likely, if they indeed are effective, is that you are buying more alertness for the moment, but paying for it in the long run. Normally substances are researched and tested by professionals for years and sometimes decades before declared safe. But even that process is not always perfect and substances with harmful side effects have been known to slip through. Potentially turning yourself into a human vegetable a couple of decades down the road by experimenting with these barely understood substances seems like a dangerous proposition.
- batbomb 11y ago
  > And there are the illegal ones like amphetamines that have a significant effect, but will also cause a great deal of harm the more you use them. So, there seems to be a clear correlation between the size of the effect and the harm done. There's definitely legal amphetamines, non-amphetamine stimulants (modafanil, methylphenidate if you want to put it there), and lots of literature statistics about what is and isn't a dose which can perform harm, and often a classification for the older drugs as GRAS. There's things which may behave like a stimulant or can replace a stimulant, but aren't really stimulants (bupropion, atomoxetine). If you're talking about Meth, well, then, yeah. It's illegal and often harmful. It's also not likely to be pure. For the most part, anything which people consider a performance enhancing brain drug has probably been used or posited as a treatment for ADHD or Narcolepsy. It's often a stimulant or a reuptake inhibitor, usually relating to dopamine in some way. There's a ton of FDA-approved drugs out there that meet this description.
krupan 11y ago
Why does this remind me so much of the multi-level marketing companies that are so prevalent in Utah, making bold unproven claims about their tropical fruit juices?
- facetube 11y ago
  Because they're drugs. Someone just picked a different name for them so that daily use sounded more socially acceptable.
- adamnemecek 11y ago
  probably because you don't know much about nootropics?
  - steego 11y ago
    I bet he didn't even read the marketing literature or the industry funded studies.
    - adamnemecek 11y ago
      Are you debating whether say Adderall has any noticeable effects?
      - steego 11y ago
        Yes. You outed me. That's exactly the point I'm making. I'm claiming Adderall has no noticeable effects. I'm also claiming caffeine does help people stay awake and that pot doesn't give people the munchies. While we're at it, morphine doesn't help with pain. I am taking the hard-line position that all well tested drugs have no efficacy. Seriously, I don't think people doubt mind enhancing drugs exist. We're skeptical of manufacturers and people who believe they've "researched" nootropics because they've read a lot of stuff on the internet written up by marketing guys, PR men, and researchers willing to do shoddy research for money.
        11y ago
michaelochurch 11y ago
I used a fairly popular, legal nootropic and set off a manic episode. Not hypomania (I'm cyclothymic, so I'm used to that and it's usually benign) but scary, saw-code-when-I-closed-my-eyes mania. (It was bad code but at least it wasn't Java.) Also, mania isn't usually "happy"; it's 15% euphoria but 35% anger and 50% anxiety. Based on one episode (eh, maybe two or three; before your mid-20s it is hard to tell) I give the experience 0 stars. Obviously this is not a common reaction, and probably very rare with most nootropics. I just want to point out that there are long-tail risks to this. Although many of these agents are probably safe for the majority of the population, creative and ambitious people are likely to be already a high-risk group. If you're a mathematician or artist or novelist advancing the state of humanity, "enhance" away, and I'll wish you the best in recovery if you get unlucky. If you're a corporate climber and you blow your brain out trying to gain an edge in a zero-sum game, then I have zero sympathy.
- mrsteveman1 11y ago
  You could probably do a lot of good on a small scale just by naming the one you're talking about, even if that reaction is rare.
  - michaelochurch 11y ago
    Inositol but it was a huge amount: more than 20mg/day, which is most definitely a pharmacological quantity. The amount you get from food or even a normal vitamin is not going to hurt you. I was also self-medicating for Open Plan Syndrome (often a precursor to full-blown Panic Disorder, as it was for me, and not uncommon in tech) so the reason why I was using it (in such absurdly high doses) may be a contributor to the fucked-up-ness.
- MichaelGG 11y ago
  Well that's why pretty much every psychoactive drug has a warning for people with mental "illness" like that. Stimulants apparently can contribute to psychosis. OTOH, I've known people that get prescribed amphetamines like mad because they're too tired out from all the anti-psychotics and mood-stabilizers. Seems a bit counterproductive. Mania can be happy. Or at least a terrible funfuck of a ride while it lasts. At least for the person experiencing it. If they don't have to deal with all the consequences.
Gatsky 11y ago
Massive, massive potential for the placebo effect. This needs to be tested in a randomised double blind trial with standardised testing of the purported cognitive enhancements. Until then it's snake oil.
- steego 11y ago
  I remember reading in one of Dan Ariely's book that spending more on placebos makes them more effective. (He typically tested people by giving them word scrambles or similar tasks). Remember kids, if you want a really good placebo experience, buy the good shit.
  - rictic 11y ago
    Other fun placebo effects: red pills work better than blue pills. All pills work better if given to you by a doctor. Better still if the doctor is wearing a white coat. Yet better is the doctor uses a large peace of medical machinery as part of the intervention. And yet a bit better on top if the machine beeps. Basically, for best results you want to receive your medicine as the Star Patient in a Very Important Looking Medical Drama right at the moment where Everything Starts Getting Better.
    - TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
      Hmm. If you have to fill in lots of scary-looking prescription forms, would that also enhance the experience?
    - shard 11y ago
      At first each change seems plausible, then it starts veering off into absurdity. I can't quite tell if this is satire or not. Do you have a link to share for these effects?
- jobu 11y ago
  There's a bit of science and chemistry involved, but most of the info about these nootropic supplements is simply anecdotes. The problem with studying these supplements is not everyone reacts the same way to them and things like diet and sleep tend to have a dramatic effect on what works and how well.
TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nootropic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nootropic
facetube 11y ago
Phenibut (beta-phenyl-GABA, mentioned in the article) is a GABA-B drug discovered in the Soviet Union in the 1960s. It's not approved for any health condition in the US, but is sold as a "dietary supplement". It acts on the same receptor as Baclofen, a prescription drug that's used to relieve muscle spasms and spasticity. In higher doses, it can affect GABA-A, with effects similar to alcohol or some benzodiazepines. After regular use measured in weeks, it can cause a potentially life-threatening withdrawal syndrome that includes seizures. As someone who's taken it a couple times, didn't get much out of it, and is now amazed he didn't end up in serious trouble: stay the hell away from Phenibut. Or, don't take my word for it: Google for "phenibut withdrawal".

33 points by geoffwoo 11y ago

To each his own. I prefer drugs typically associated with decreased work ability and increased aptitude for fun.

people who want to get ahead will do their best to cheat without getting caught, and will take unreasonable risks... doing whatever it takes to succeed. this is not new. personally i prefer to dumb myself down with a bit of weed... :)

MichaelGG 11y ago

This further illustrates how terribly unfair modern medical systems are. Want to change your brain chemistry? You've gotta do a song-and-dance for a doctor. Who might either hate "addicts", or be terrified of the DEA. Do a poor job lying and try again? Oh, now you're "doctor shopping", which some want to criminalize. Have an in with a doctor or have enough money, well then it's no problem. (Sure, money buys a lot of leeway in everything, but this is a fairly basic freedom.) I'm not an American but from what I was taught about folks like Ben Franklin, I think they'd be shocked to know it has become illegal to determine your own treatment.

Gatsky 11y ago
This is a thorny topic. The trouble is that when a large number of people take a drug, rare but horrific side effects may manifest. How do you factor this in to deciding an appropriate level of regulation? Is it fair that we permit easily accessible experimentation with psychoactive or nootropic substances, when someone downs a few too many, has a psychotic episode and drowns his children? Or has a fatal allergic reaction? Or drives their car off a bridge because they have been awake for 96 hours taking one of these products? That may sound outlandish, but eventually something like this will happen to someone if enough people take it. So I don't know if you can just couch it in terms of personal freedoms... it seems a bit more complicated than that. I don't know what the answer is, but pretty sure it isn't just 'Let people do whatever they want.' At least with heroin and cocaine people have some idea about the risks, even if they decide to ignore them...
- MichaelGG 11y ago
  How do we handle alcohol? You tell people that modifying yourself isn't an excuse for committing crimes. And follow up and enforce that. Making it a crime to use chemicals on your own mind is absurd. With heroin, the biggest risk is the fact it's illegal, thus preventing you from obtaining clean, known-quantity medication. If Tylenol was sold on the streets, with pills ranging from 100mg to 1000mg, we'd have a LOT more liver toxicity cases than we do. It's not like using opiates in a correct manner leads to death on a routine basis.
  - Gatsky 11y ago
    1. Countless lives have been destroyed by alcohol. Busted up families, people killed by drunk drivers, children maimed by fetal alcohol syndrome, abused wives, husbands and children, fried brains, fried livers and across multiple generations... Why would we want to repeat that experience? If alcohol were invented today it would never be in widespread use like it is now. It's become a lifestyle thing because of thousands of years of culture and legacy. It's a prime example of why your approach is a terrible idea. 2. Heroin is a highly addictive substance, that will kill you in sufficient qualities. You don't see that as a problem?? Even if it were cleanly packaged with a black label, people would still take too much and die from it. Cute example with Tylenol, but doesn't cause dependence and withdrawal. Opiates are given to people with pain, where they have a fundamentally different physiological effect.
    - MichaelGG 11y ago
      My comparison to Tylenol is apt. If you bought pills thinking they were ~100mg, but they were 10x that, you would soon find yourself with a broken liver. To be clear Tylenol will kill you in sufficient quantities, amounts you're likely to easily by from a store. Opiates do not have a "fundamentally different" effect if you're in pain. I think people like saying that about opiates and stimulants so as to excuse people that "need" it. And yes, personal freedom is worth people choosing to rip apart families.
      - 11y ago

yojo 11y ago

Is it just me that worries about a race to the bottom with brain hacking? Assume some combination of nootropics/transcranial stimulation/etc gives you a short-term edge for unknown (or known) long term risk. If you're a profit-maximizing employer, would you rather hire the person who performs better today, or the person who is looking out for their own long-term safety? Or if you're a startup founder competing against a bunch of doped up super-brains, how strong must the incentive be to join the dark side? I see similarities with professional sports, where athletic associations are always playing Whac-A-Mole with performance enhancing drugs, and top earning athletes routinely get chastised for doping. Should we expect outcomes in knowledge work to be different if brain hacking proves as effective?

Quizz 11y ago

How rampant is nootropic use in Silicon Valley?

omgitstom 11y ago
It will be hard to measure effectively. When you see the breadth of chemicals considered nootropics, you will see why.
- mattmanser 11y ago
  You're looking for breadth, not breathe.
  - omgitstom 11y ago
    Thanks! fixed...
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
  Lots of people drink strong coffee and such, for instance.

borgia 11y ago

I suppose it's only natural that people are resorting to these when huge swathes of the American youth are being prescribed Adderall and similar and gaining a competitive edge with them over those who don't have access to them. I previously looked at sourcing modafinil but ultimately decided against it due the the sources available looking dodgy, a lack of clarity in the laws around it, etc. As more reputable companies emerge in the sector I think I may well end up giving the products a go.

HockeyPlayer 11y ago
I've heard good things about www.modafinilcat.com
- mahouse 11y ago
  That's gotta be the most American thing ever. A .com website that sells you drugs so you can work harder. And the website is designed to look like they are selling you lollies.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
    I can't say being marketed nootropics with an almost LSD-esque site really inspires confidence in me.
    - mrsteveman1 11y ago
      I really expected to see nyan cat bouncing across the screen while waiting for that site to load. I'm not sure if that would have been better or worse.
- mrmondo 11y ago
  I too have heard good things... (Says no more)
- lumpypua 11y ago
  I've had 4 or 5 successful orders. Great customer service too.

this_user 11y ago

The one thing that really interests me about this is the long-term damage you are doing to yourself. There appear to be two types of stimulants. There are the legal ones like caffeine that have a moderate effect and are not significantly unhealthy unless consumed in extreme quantities. And there are the illegal ones like amphetamines that have a significant effect, but will also cause a great deal of harm the more you use them. So, there seems to be a clear correlation between the size of the effect and the harm done. This then begs the question where these new substances stand. Are they barely more than caffeine and mostly harmless? Is maybe the placebo effect playing a role in making them appear more effective to the user than they truly are? But if they do have a significant effect, at what price does it come? The human body needs rest, that is a pretty well-established fact. It seems unlikely that these substances would be able to change this fundamental principle. What does seem likely, if they indeed are effective, is that you are buying more alertness for the moment, but paying for it in the long run. Normally substances are researched and tested by professionals for years and sometimes decades before declared safe. But even that process is not always perfect and substances with harmful side effects have been known to slip through. Potentially turning yourself into a human vegetable a couple of decades down the road by experimenting with these barely understood substances seems like a dangerous proposition.

batbomb 11y ago
> And there are the illegal ones like amphetamines that have a significant effect, but will also cause a great deal of harm the more you use them. So, there seems to be a clear correlation between the size of the effect and the harm done. There's definitely legal amphetamines, non-amphetamine stimulants (modafanil, methylphenidate if you want to put it there), and lots of literature statistics about what is and isn't a dose which can perform harm, and often a classification for the older drugs as GRAS. There's things which may behave like a stimulant or can replace a stimulant, but aren't really stimulants (bupropion, atomoxetine). If you're talking about Meth, well, then, yeah. It's illegal and often harmful. It's also not likely to be pure. For the most part, anything which people consider a performance enhancing brain drug has probably been used or posited as a treatment for ADHD or Narcolepsy. It's often a stimulant or a reuptake inhibitor, usually relating to dopamine in some way. There's a ton of FDA-approved drugs out there that meet this description.

krupan 11y ago

Why does this remind me so much of the multi-level marketing companies that are so prevalent in Utah, making bold unproven claims about their tropical fruit juices?

facetube 11y ago
Because they're drugs. Someone just picked a different name for them so that daily use sounded more socially acceptable.
adamnemecek 11y ago
probably because you don't know much about nootropics?
- steego 11y ago
  I bet he didn't even read the marketing literature or the industry funded studies.
  - adamnemecek 11y ago
    Are you debating whether say Adderall has any noticeable effects?
    - steego 11y ago
      Yes. You outed me. That's exactly the point I'm making. I'm claiming Adderall has no noticeable effects. I'm also claiming caffeine does help people stay awake and that pot doesn't give people the munchies. While we're at it, morphine doesn't help with pain. I am taking the hard-line position that all well tested drugs have no efficacy. Seriously, I don't think people doubt mind enhancing drugs exist. We're skeptical of manufacturers and people who believe they've "researched" nootropics because they've read a lot of stuff on the internet written up by marketing guys, PR men, and researchers willing to do shoddy research for money.
      - 11y ago

michaelochurch 11y ago

I used a fairly popular, legal nootropic and set off a manic episode. Not hypomania (I'm cyclothymic, so I'm used to that and it's usually benign) but scary, saw-code-when-I-closed-my-eyes mania. (It was bad code but at least it wasn't Java.) Also, mania isn't usually "happy"; it's 15% euphoria but 35% anger and 50% anxiety. Based on one episode (eh, maybe two or three; before your mid-20s it is hard to tell) I give the experience 0 stars. Obviously this is not a common reaction, and probably very rare with most nootropics. I just want to point out that there are long-tail risks to this. Although many of these agents are probably safe for the majority of the population, creative and ambitious people are likely to be already a high-risk group. If you're a mathematician or artist or novelist advancing the state of humanity, "enhance" away, and I'll wish you the best in recovery if you get unlucky. If you're a corporate climber and you blow your brain out trying to gain an edge in a zero-sum game, then I have zero sympathy.

mrsteveman1 11y ago
You could probably do a lot of good on a small scale just by naming the one you're talking about, even if that reaction is rare.
- michaelochurch 11y ago
  Inositol but it was a huge amount: more than 20mg/day, which is most definitely a pharmacological quantity. The amount you get from food or even a normal vitamin is not going to hurt you. I was also self-medicating for Open Plan Syndrome (often a precursor to full-blown Panic Disorder, as it was for me, and not uncommon in tech) so the reason why I was using it (in such absurdly high doses) may be a contributor to the fucked-up-ness.
MichaelGG 11y ago
Well that's why pretty much every psychoactive drug has a warning for people with mental "illness" like that. Stimulants apparently can contribute to psychosis. OTOH, I've known people that get prescribed amphetamines like mad because they're too tired out from all the anti-psychotics and mood-stabilizers. Seems a bit counterproductive. Mania can be happy. Or at least a terrible funfuck of a ride while it lasts. At least for the person experiencing it. If they don't have to deal with all the consequences.

Gatsky 11y ago

Massive, massive potential for the placebo effect. This needs to be tested in a randomised double blind trial with standardised testing of the purported cognitive enhancements. Until then it's snake oil.

steego 11y ago
I remember reading in one of Dan Ariely's book that spending more on placebos makes them more effective. (He typically tested people by giving them word scrambles or similar tasks). Remember kids, if you want a really good placebo experience, buy the good shit.
- rictic 11y ago
  Other fun placebo effects: red pills work better than blue pills. All pills work better if given to you by a doctor. Better still if the doctor is wearing a white coat. Yet better is the doctor uses a large peace of medical machinery as part of the intervention. And yet a bit better on top if the machine beeps. Basically, for best results you want to receive your medicine as the Star Patient in a Very Important Looking Medical Drama right at the moment where Everything Starts Getting Better.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
    Hmm. If you have to fill in lots of scary-looking prescription forms, would that also enhance the experience?
  - shard 11y ago
    At first each change seems plausible, then it starts veering off into absurdity. I can't quite tell if this is satire or not. Do you have a link to share for these effects?
jobu 11y ago
There's a bit of science and chemistry involved, but most of the info about these nootropic supplements is simply anecdotes. The problem with studying these supplements is not everyone reacts the same way to them and things like diet and sleep tend to have a dramatic effect on what works and how well.

TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nootropic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nootropic

facetube 11y ago

Phenibut (beta-phenyl-GABA, mentioned in the article) is a GABA-B drug discovered in the Soviet Union in the 1960s. It's not approved for any health condition in the US, but is sold as a "dietary supplement". It acts on the same receptor as Baclofen, a prescription drug that's used to relieve muscle spasms and spasticity. In higher doses, it can affect GABA-A, with effects similar to alcohol or some benzodiazepines. After regular use measured in weeks, it can cause a potentially life-threatening withdrawal syndrome that includes seizures. As someone who's taken it a couple times, didn't get much out of it, and is now amazed he didn't end up in serious trouble: stay the hell away from Phenibut. Or, don't take my word for it: Google for "phenibut withdrawal".