4 ms·

You'd like to toss out all of the women-focused (and I'd guess minority-focused in general) programs, but I'd be curious how much the people for whom those even

by Frondo 12y ago

You'd like to toss out all of the women-focused (and I'd guess minority-focused in general) programs, but I'd be curious how much the people for whom those events/groups are intended generally feel. I think it's safe to say they sprung up in response to a market need--they didn't just come out of nowhere, for no point, and suddenly gain a lot of traction (because nothing does)--so how well do they work overall? I, unlike you, am not interested in dismissing them all, because I have seen lots of times how young white dudes get to run the show, and end up dismissing everyone who doesn't look like them, regardless of so-called merit. So I wonder...how much was this one an isolated "done wrong" event?

drzaiusapelord 12y ago
>I think it's safe to say they sprung up in response to a market need The politics of shaming and diversity guidelines are not market factors. This is like saying that the market wants us to have brainless middle managers. These things are all market inefficiencies that we should strive to eliminate or minimize. I can't imagine tech pioneers from the 80s and 90s being under scrutiny like groups today are. Would we have Linux if Linus worried that his largely white male contributors weren't diverse enough? Would we have Apple is Jobs felt like he needed to "white knight" the women at his company? Probably not.
- Frondo 12y ago
  Whoa! I didn't realize that market forces now excluded stuff that you obviously don't like. If the market didn't want us to have "brainless middle managers," as you'd apparently characterize a wide swath of our colleagues, then those people would already have been efficiency'd out. Just like, if people who don't look like you weren't lining up to be involved in hackathons and groups that consist of people who don't look like you, those events wouldn't exist. People pay for it, whether you like it or approve of it or not. Behold, the market works!
  - cousin_it 12y ago
    then those people would already have been efficiency'd out If free market theory claimed that bad employees can't exist, that would be a pretty strong blow against free market theory ;-)
- AlexandrB 12y ago
  > The politics of shaming and diversity guidelines are not market factors. Of course they are! Just like the politics of discrimination and dehumanization were market factors in previous eras. To pretend otherwise is to take a very narrow view of the market that ignores the full range of human interactions. Indeed, trends in industries such as fashion, music, film, and gaming are almost entirely driven by what ideas are popular at a given time and not by some objective utility function of the product.
Kalium 12y ago
> I'd be curious how much the people for whom those events/groups are intended generally feel. I don't know about you, but I'm not at all interested in how the intended audience feels. I'm strongly interested in how their behaviors change with these programs. Programs that make people feel good but don't change behavior (i.e., don't get more women into tech) are not of value.

by Frondo 12y ago

drzaiusapelord 12y ago

>I think it's safe to say they sprung up in response to a market need The politics of shaming and diversity guidelines are not market factors. This is like saying that the market wants us to have brainless middle managers. These things are all market inefficiencies that we should strive to eliminate or minimize. I can't imagine tech pioneers from the 80s and 90s being under scrutiny like groups today are. Would we have Linux if Linus worried that his largely white male contributors weren't diverse enough? Would we have Apple is Jobs felt like he needed to "white knight" the women at his company? Probably not.

Frondo 12y ago
Whoa! I didn't realize that market forces now excluded stuff that you obviously don't like. If the market didn't want us to have "brainless middle managers," as you'd apparently characterize a wide swath of our colleagues, then those people would already have been efficiency'd out. Just like, if people who don't look like you weren't lining up to be involved in hackathons and groups that consist of people who don't look like you, those events wouldn't exist. People pay for it, whether you like it or approve of it or not. Behold, the market works!
- cousin_it 12y ago
  then those people would already have been efficiency'd out If free market theory claimed that bad employees can't exist, that would be a pretty strong blow against free market theory ;-)
AlexandrB 12y ago
> The politics of shaming and diversity guidelines are not market factors. Of course they are! Just like the politics of discrimination and dehumanization were market factors in previous eras. To pretend otherwise is to take a very narrow view of the market that ignores the full range of human interactions. Indeed, trends in industries such as fashion, music, film, and gaming are almost entirely driven by what ideas are popular at a given time and not by some objective utility function of the product.

Kalium 12y ago

> I'd be curious how much the people for whom those events/groups are intended generally feel. I don't know about you, but I'm not at all interested in how the intended audience feels. I'm strongly interested in how their behaviors change with these programs. Programs that make people feel good but don't change behavior (i.e., don't get more women into tech) are not of value.