4 ms·

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

by nsns 12y ago

cbd1984 12y ago
As it stands, there's a simple answer: The brain. The person is defined by having a specific brain; you can swap out literally everything else and the person will still be the same person. This will be more relevant when pieces of the brain are being swapped out.
- suchow 12y ago
  Though I find it hard to relate to, many people consider their bodies to be essential to their identity — they wouldn't be them without it. These people find our intuition about what is essential similarly foreign.
  - cbd1984 12y ago
    Some people have body dysmorphia issues, and some people just really identify with looking a specific way. I understand that. However, some people really identify with living in a specific location, too, but we don't usually regard moving day as the death date of the person who moved.
    - Sharlin 12y ago
      To be fair, AFAIK we don't really know how much the rest of the nervous system is "attuned" to being connected to a specific brain and vice versa. That is, even if the brainstem could be 100% connected to the spinal cord, we don't know how hard it would be to adapt to the new body. Could it result in something resembling the alien hand syndrome [1] or body integrity identity disorder [2], for instance? [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_hand_syndrome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_hand_syndrome [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_identity_disorder http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_identity_disorde...
- baddox 12y ago
  How do you know that we can swap everything else and the person will still be the same person?
  - cbd1984 12y ago
    Because we've done it. OK, that's a bit facetious. A combination of existing transplantation procedures (heart? check. liver? check. kidneys? check...) and the fact that sometimes people need things removed but not replaced (thyroid, for example) leaves nothing but the brain as the organ which can't be removed and/or replaced without changing who the person is.
    - jeremysmyth 11y ago
      There's quite a big gap between "some bits have been removed or replaced" and "the brain is the only bit that can't be replaced" without changing who the person is. The nervous system (of which the brain is but a part) is quite a large and complex thing, and there is no guarantee that one's conscious being is tied to that set of neurons in one's head and not, for example, to the extended set below the neck. There's evidence that certain functions are performed mostly or wholly within the brain, but no evidence of consciousness, which is what I think you mean by "changing who the person is". Heart? Liver? Kidneys? Thyroid and appendix and gallbladders? They ain't got nothin' on the nervous system when it comes to me.
- LoSboccacc 12y ago
  well, I don't really think this is the case, not for metaphysical reason or such, but because glands and the chemicals they produce have a high impact on how the brain functions http://www.jabfm.org/content/23/5/677.full http://www.jabfm.org/content/23/5/677.full I'd argue that the completely different chemical balance the brain will be subject to will cause dramatic behavioral swings, even if the patient memory and skills might be maintained (well, not the motor skill, I guess)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

by nsns 12y ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

cbd1984 12y ago

As it stands, there's a simple answer: The brain. The person is defined by having a specific brain; you can swap out literally everything else and the person will still be the same person. This will be more relevant when pieces of the brain are being swapped out.

suchow 12y ago
Though I find it hard to relate to, many people consider their bodies to be essential to their identity — they wouldn't be them without it. These people find our intuition about what is essential similarly foreign.
- cbd1984 12y ago
  Some people have body dysmorphia issues, and some people just really identify with looking a specific way. I understand that. However, some people really identify with living in a specific location, too, but we don't usually regard moving day as the death date of the person who moved.
  - Sharlin 12y ago
    To be fair, AFAIK we don't really know how much the rest of the nervous system is "attuned" to being connected to a specific brain and vice versa. That is, even if the brainstem could be 100% connected to the spinal cord, we don't know how hard it would be to adapt to the new body. Could it result in something resembling the alien hand syndrome [1] or body integrity identity disorder [2], for instance? [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_hand_syndrome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_hand_syndrome [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_identity_disorder http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_identity_disorde...
baddox 12y ago
How do you know that we can swap everything else and the person will still be the same person?
- cbd1984 12y ago
  Because we've done it. OK, that's a bit facetious. A combination of existing transplantation procedures (heart? check. liver? check. kidneys? check...) and the fact that sometimes people need things removed but not replaced (thyroid, for example) leaves nothing but the brain as the organ which can't be removed and/or replaced without changing who the person is.
  - jeremysmyth 11y ago
    There's quite a big gap between "some bits have been removed or replaced" and "the brain is the only bit that can't be replaced" without changing who the person is. The nervous system (of which the brain is but a part) is quite a large and complex thing, and there is no guarantee that one's conscious being is tied to that set of neurons in one's head and not, for example, to the extended set below the neck. There's evidence that certain functions are performed mostly or wholly within the brain, but no evidence of consciousness, which is what I think you mean by "changing who the person is". Heart? Liver? Kidneys? Thyroid and appendix and gallbladders? They ain't got nothin' on the nervous system when it comes to me.
LoSboccacc 12y ago
well, I don't really think this is the case, not for metaphysical reason or such, but because glands and the chemicals they produce have a high impact on how the brain functions http://www.jabfm.org/content/23/5/677.full http://www.jabfm.org/content/23/5/677.full I'd argue that the completely different chemical balance the brain will be subject to will cause dramatic behavioral swings, even if the patient memory and skills might be maintained (well, not the motor skill, I guess)