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If it takes you a few weeks to get started with the basics (in either Emacs or vim), you're doing it wrong. Following their respective tutorials you can get up

If it takes you a few weeks to get started with the basics (in either Emacs or vim), you're doing it wrong. Following their respective tutorials you can get up and running (for basic open/navigate/edit/save/search/replace) functionality in a few hours. You won't be proficient, but you should be able to get stuff done. The rest comes with usage; you can't learn either editor properly by reading the whole book and then not using them. Proficiency comes from constant use, and you never stop learning. I'm an Emacs user of 13 years, and using Evil for the last 3 or so, so I'm comfortable in vim as well, and I still learn new stuff about them all the time.

crucialfelix 12y ago
The basic functionality is completely useless for doing actual programming work. > (for basic open/navigate/edit/save/search/replace) functionality in a few hours Do you know how long it takes in Sublime / Atom / TextMate ? Approximately zero. I use Spacemacs (Emacs with VIM inside) and even after months of working with it I'm still faster in Atom. That's not because I'm "doing it wrong".
- RBerenguel 12y ago
  Sorry to chime being negative, but it takes you approximately zero because it uses the same paradigm as software you learnt years ago. It probably didn't take you zero time to learn how to open a file, what a files was, what a search-replace was, how it worked, etc, the first time you were confronted with it
  - crucialfelix 12y ago
    Yes, that's my point. Emacs could, but does not integrate with the OS and established keys that well. Spacemacs fixes some of that integration. cmd-X C V S all work. but no cmd-F or cmd-R
    - RBerenguel 12y ago
      Well, the keybindings on emacs predate most other keybindings. I don't use it very often, but Cmd-F is forward-word, to move forward a word (heh.) For keyboards without arrow keys it is very handy (my oldest laptop didn't have them.) Cmd-R I have never used its binding (so I could rebind it, but what binding would you like to have in it? "Reload"?
      - crucialfelix 12y ago
        sorry I mean cmd-shift-f which is usually find and replace. and cmd-f is not the same as ctrl-f. in the emacs tongue it is referred to as s-f predating is irrelevant. most of the younguns using text editors were born well after emacs was created. Emacs is technically capable of being customized to suit established usage patterns. its only cultural stubborness that stops it.
david-given 12y ago
Hours? It's more like about one minute --- that's how long it takes to do lesson one of vimtutor, which tells you how to save and quit, move the cursor, and insert and delete text. Going all the way to the end of vimtutor would probably take about 15 to 20 minutes, and assuming you remembered it all would make you pretty effective (I've been using vim for years and there's basic stuff in there I've never used; skimming it just now I kept going 'huh, I did not know that'). I will admit that the vi learning curve can be stupidly steep in places, but right down at the novice end it's not bad at all.
tragic 12y ago
Sigh. From my angle, I've been learning/using the CUA-type keyboard shortcuts since I was about 8 years old - so that's 20 years now, and 16 or so before I wrote a line of code. The question is not 'how quickly can I learn open/save/etc in vim/Emacs?', or even 'how quickly can I learn open/save/etc and remember it next time I open vim/Emacs?' but 'how quickly will I be more productive in either of them than something that does use all the shortcuts I've been using for two decades and are basically wired into my unconscious as deep as the need for oxygen, food and sex?' On that scale, I think a few weeks is the most generous estimate possible. I understand why people love vim and Emacs, but they often underestimate how steep the learning curve is if you're very, very used to doing the same things slightly differently.

crucialfelix 12y ago

The basic functionality is completely useless for doing actual programming work. > (for basic open/navigate/edit/save/search/replace) functionality in a few hours Do you know how long it takes in Sublime / Atom / TextMate ? Approximately zero. I use Spacemacs (Emacs with VIM inside) and even after months of working with it I'm still faster in Atom. That's not because I'm "doing it wrong".

RBerenguel 12y ago
Sorry to chime being negative, but it takes you approximately zero because it uses the same paradigm as software you learnt years ago. It probably didn't take you zero time to learn how to open a file, what a files was, what a search-replace was, how it worked, etc, the first time you were confronted with it
- crucialfelix 12y ago
  Yes, that's my point. Emacs could, but does not integrate with the OS and established keys that well. Spacemacs fixes some of that integration. cmd-X C V S all work. but no cmd-F or cmd-R
  - RBerenguel 12y ago
    Well, the keybindings on emacs predate most other keybindings. I don't use it very often, but Cmd-F is forward-word, to move forward a word (heh.) For keyboards without arrow keys it is very handy (my oldest laptop didn't have them.) Cmd-R I have never used its binding (so I could rebind it, but what binding would you like to have in it? "Reload"?
    - crucialfelix 12y ago
      sorry I mean cmd-shift-f which is usually find and replace. and cmd-f is not the same as ctrl-f. in the emacs tongue it is referred to as s-f predating is irrelevant. most of the younguns using text editors were born well after emacs was created. Emacs is technically capable of being customized to suit established usage patterns. its only cultural stubborness that stops it.

david-given 12y ago

Hours? It's more like about one minute --- that's how long it takes to do lesson one of vimtutor, which tells you how to save and quit, move the cursor, and insert and delete text. Going all the way to the end of vimtutor would probably take about 15 to 20 minutes, and assuming you remembered it all would make you pretty effective (I've been using vim for years and there's basic stuff in there I've never used; skimming it just now I kept going 'huh, I did not know that'). I will admit that the vi learning curve can be stupidly steep in places, but right down at the novice end it's not bad at all.

tragic 12y ago

Sigh. From my angle, I've been learning/using the CUA-type keyboard shortcuts since I was about 8 years old - so that's 20 years now, and 16 or so before I wrote a line of code. The question is not 'how quickly can I learn open/save/etc in vim/Emacs?', or even 'how quickly can I learn open/save/etc and remember it next time I open vim/Emacs?' but 'how quickly will I be more productive in either of them than something that does use all the shortcuts I've been using for two decades and are basically wired into my unconscious as deep as the need for oxygen, food and sex?' On that scale, I think a few weeks is the most generous estimate possible. I understand why people love vim and Emacs, but they often underestimate how steep the learning curve is if you're very, very used to doing the same things slightly differently.