4 ms·

Maybe the CUA thing doesn't matter. After all, Vim is much worse in first impression, but it's more popular by an order of magnitude. Maybe Emacs just needs to

Maybe the CUA thing doesn't matter. After all, Vim is much worse in first impression, but it's more popular by an order of magnitude. Maybe Emacs just needs to be installed by default, and for that, needs to slim down. Make more of its embedded elisp optional?

wodenokoto 12y ago
To me it is all about a sane starting point. With Sublime I could jump in and start writing code in a beautiful and immediately helpful environment, even though I had never programmed before. As I got better at programming I wanted more advanced features and most of them I found in the included batteries, and a few I got from plugins (although all the good plugins I want seem to have died). With VIM or Emacs I have no idea where to start, except for maybe a few weeks in the terminal and manual before I can even start to code. Then it is still an open question about what it will scale to. I am not sure I want my environment to look like [this].(http://blog.jetbrains.com/pycharm/files/2013/06/vim3-1024x748.gif http://blog.jetbrains.com/pycharm/files/2013/06/vim3-1024x74...) With Spyder, RStudio and Octave GUI I can start programming right away, I can see the benefit of the IDE right away, the only problem is I have 3 different text editors with their own short cuts and features.
- tincholio 12y ago
  If it takes you a few weeks to get started with the basics (in either Emacs or vim), you're doing it wrong. Following their respective tutorials you can get up and running (for basic open/navigate/edit/save/search/replace) functionality in a few hours. You won't be proficient, but you should be able to get stuff done. The rest comes with usage; you can't learn either editor properly by reading the whole book and then not using them. Proficiency comes from constant use, and you never stop learning. I'm an Emacs user of 13 years, and using Evil for the last 3 or so, so I'm comfortable in vim as well, and I still learn new stuff about them all the time.
  - crucialfelix 12y ago
    The basic functionality is completely useless for doing actual programming work. > (for basic open/navigate/edit/save/search/replace) functionality in a few hours Do you know how long it takes in Sublime / Atom / TextMate ? Approximately zero. I use Spacemacs (Emacs with VIM inside) and even after months of working with it I'm still faster in Atom. That's not because I'm "doing it wrong".
    - RBerenguel 12y ago
      Sorry to chime being negative, but it takes you approximately zero because it uses the same paradigm as software you learnt years ago. It probably didn't take you zero time to learn how to open a file, what a files was, what a search-replace was, how it worked, etc, the first time you were confronted with it
      - crucialfelix 12y ago
        Yes, that's my point. Emacs could, but does not integrate with the OS and established keys that well. Spacemacs fixes some of that integration. cmd-X C V S all work. but no cmd-F or cmd-R
        RBerenguel 12y ago
        Well, the keybindings on emacs predate most other keybindings. I don't use it very often, but Cmd-F is forward-word, to move forward a word (heh.) For keyboards without arrow keys it is very handy (my oldest laptop didn't have them.) Cmd-R I have never used its binding (so I could rebind it, but what binding would you like to have in it? "Reload"?
        crucialfelix 12y ago
        sorry I mean cmd-shift-f which is usually find and replace. and cmd-f is not the same as ctrl-f. in the emacs tongue it is referred to as s-f predating is irrelevant. most of the younguns using text editors were born well after emacs was created. Emacs is technically capable of being customized to suit established usage patterns. its only cultural stubborness that stops it.
- Grue3 12y ago
  What prevents you from programming in Emacs out of the box? It has a superset of Notepad functionality straight away, and more complex functions are easily learned through built-in help.

wodenokoto 12y ago

To me it is all about a sane starting point. With Sublime I could jump in and start writing code in a beautiful and immediately helpful environment, even though I had never programmed before. As I got better at programming I wanted more advanced features and most of them I found in the included batteries, and a few I got from plugins (although all the good plugins I want seem to have died). With VIM or Emacs I have no idea where to start, except for maybe a few weeks in the terminal and manual before I can even start to code. Then it is still an open question about what it will scale to. I am not sure I want my environment to look like [this].(http://blog.jetbrains.com/pycharm/files/2013/06/vim3-1024x748.gif http://blog.jetbrains.com/pycharm/files/2013/06/vim3-1024x74...) With Spyder, RStudio and Octave GUI I can start programming right away, I can see the benefit of the IDE right away, the only problem is I have 3 different text editors with their own short cuts and features.

tincholio 12y ago
If it takes you a few weeks to get started with the basics (in either Emacs or vim), you're doing it wrong. Following their respective tutorials you can get up and running (for basic open/navigate/edit/save/search/replace) functionality in a few hours. You won't be proficient, but you should be able to get stuff done. The rest comes with usage; you can't learn either editor properly by reading the whole book and then not using them. Proficiency comes from constant use, and you never stop learning. I'm an Emacs user of 13 years, and using Evil for the last 3 or so, so I'm comfortable in vim as well, and I still learn new stuff about them all the time.
- crucialfelix 12y ago
  The basic functionality is completely useless for doing actual programming work. > (for basic open/navigate/edit/save/search/replace) functionality in a few hours Do you know how long it takes in Sublime / Atom / TextMate ? Approximately zero. I use Spacemacs (Emacs with VIM inside) and even after months of working with it I'm still faster in Atom. That's not because I'm "doing it wrong".
  - RBerenguel 12y ago
    Sorry to chime being negative, but it takes you approximately zero because it uses the same paradigm as software you learnt years ago. It probably didn't take you zero time to learn how to open a file, what a files was, what a search-replace was, how it worked, etc, the first time you were confronted with it
    - crucialfelix 12y ago
      Yes, that's my point. Emacs could, but does not integrate with the OS and established keys that well. Spacemacs fixes some of that integration. cmd-X C V S all work. but no cmd-F or cmd-R
      - RBerenguel 12y ago
        Well, the keybindings on emacs predate most other keybindings. I don't use it very often, but Cmd-F is forward-word, to move forward a word (heh.) For keyboards without arrow keys it is very handy (my oldest laptop didn't have them.) Cmd-R I have never used its binding (so I could rebind it, but what binding would you like to have in it? "Reload"?
        crucialfelix 12y ago
        sorry I mean cmd-shift-f which is usually find and replace. and cmd-f is not the same as ctrl-f. in the emacs tongue it is referred to as s-f predating is irrelevant. most of the younguns using text editors were born well after emacs was created. Emacs is technically capable of being customized to suit established usage patterns. its only cultural stubborness that stops it.
Grue3 12y ago
What prevents you from programming in Emacs out of the box? It has a superset of Notepad functionality straight away, and more complex functions are easily learned through built-in help.