7 ms·

Do I just not get the scale? For this investment to make sense, they would have to get to $100s of million dollars, but by charging a few thousand companies $7?

Do I just not get the scale? For this investment to make sense, they would have to get to $100s of million dollars, but by charging a few thousand companies $7? And I'd say there's a 50/50 chance node will completely collapse within 10 years or so. And that's being generous, javascript is a controversial language and the standards committee moves very slowly. I honestly can't see it staying king once browsers can support other languages. You only have to see how fast Ruby was a darling and even now might be regarded on its swan song, less than 10 years later. Tech changes, the next big language will hit soon. Congratulations to them and all that, and great product, I'm just wondering if someone can explain the sense in investing so much money into something like this? As this seems an incredibly risky venture?

Igglyboo 12y ago
> I honestly can't see it staying king once browsers can support other languages. Theres no way this happens anytime soon. Google already tried that with Dart and it failed.
- moron4hire 12y ago
  It's funny how people forget that IE had supported multiple languages for a very long time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer#Architecture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer#Architecture Internet Explorer does not include any native scripting functionality. Rather, MSHTML.dll exposes an API that permit a programmer to develop a scripting environment to be plugged-in and to access the DOM tree. Internet Explorer 8 includes the bindings for the Active Scripting engine, which is a part of Microsoft Windows and allows any language implemented as an Active Scripting module to be used for client-side scripting. By default, only the JScript and VBScript modules are provided; third party implementations like ScreamingMonkey (for ECMAScript 4 support) can also be used. Microsoft also makes available the Microsoft Silverlight runtime (not supported in Windows RT) that allows CLI languages, including DLR-based dynamic languages like IronPython and IronRuby, to be used for client-side scripting.
  - Igglyboo 12y ago
    IE did but we're talking in the context of the web as a whole. An IE-only language in 2015 would be DOA.
  - Touche 12y ago
    No one forgot, it just failed like the parent's example of Dart.
  - untog 12y ago
    Right. Any how widely used is that?
  - pcwalton 12y ago
    Gecko too for a while (because there was concern that VBScript would catch on, AFAIK), though it was eventually removed. The nsIProgrammingLanguage enum is the last vestige of this support: https://dxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/xpcom/base/nsIProgrammingLanguage.idl https://dxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/xpcom/base/ns...
- ahoge 12y ago
  Many of the bigger "JavaScript" projects aren't written in JavaScript. Browsers support any language. As long as they compile to JavaScript, that is. Also, Dart just works fine. Inside browsers as JavaScript and outside browsers in its own VM. This was written in Dart, for example: http://adsense.blogspot.com/2015/04/new-adsense-performance-reports.html http://adsense.blogspot.com/2015/04/new-adsense-performance-... You really don't have to use JS if you don't want to.
ccallebs 12y ago
It doesn't matter if Npm is ever profitable. If an investor puts money into Npm, they are indirectly adding value to every company that uses Npm. Making sure that a comprehensive dependency manager exists for JavaScript helps every company that uses JavaScript. Additionally, neither JavaScript or Ruby is nearing their "swan song". Other languages will come out. The current languages will persist.
- rezistik 12y ago
  Exactly. If they invest in 10 companies built on Node and therefore NPM they are investing in 11 companies by investing in NPM. They are purchasing security of their open source tools.
awinder 12y ago
Assumes they are only ever going to launch this one product. Also it's $7 for an individual account, they're launching corporate accounts which I would assume will be priced accordingly. There's enough pain points around the Node.JS infrastructure / tooling that NPM, Inc. probably has some great verticals to explore, and they probably sold the investors on as much. As for Node.JS dying, anything is possible I guess. PHP is still a monster and I don't think I'll ever understand why that happened completely. Node.js has a good story to tell and from my exp. a lot of PHP / frontend developers found easier transitions to Node.JS than other languages / stacks.
- swang 12y ago
  This is their second product. They have a private npm repo service, aka npm enterprise.
rifung 12y ago
What's so controversial about Javascript? I'm not denying your claims; I just started using it a bit and so far really like it. Then again, I'm coming from Java so maybe I just appreciate not having to use OOP and being able to use functions everywhere. And isn't Ruby also controversial? At least it seems like people either really like it or don't like it. Everyone I have talked to seems to agree that the only reason Ruby really took off is due to Rails.
- Zergy 12y ago
  Being controversial is not a big deal if it is optional. You simply can not do modern web development without JavaScript. There are tons of alternatives to Ruby.
moe 12y ago
You only have to see how fast Ruby was a darling and even now might be regarded on its swan song By what metric, your personal preference? Because the common statistics[1][2][3] don't quite support your remark. And I'd say there's a 50/50 chance node will completely collapse within 10 years or so. Again, just making random stuff up? As much as I'd love for javascript to disappear, the idea of that happening within a decade is nothing short of ridiculous. [1] http://langpop.com/ http://langpop.com/ [2] http://githut.info/ http://githut.info/ [3] https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=ruby%2C%20rails%2C%20javascript%2C%20node%2C%20java&cmpt=q&tz= https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=ruby%2C%20rails%2C%2...
- Irene 12y ago
  Commenting on the popularity of languages: In TIOBE index of programming language popularity (based on web searches), Ruby is ranked 18th, down from 11th in April 2014. It fluctuates, but the trend is downward - 14th in November 2014, 13th in November 2013 and 11th in January 2013. Javascript is still rising. http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.... It is supported by overall job trends (vs those for ycombinator-backed startups and github popularity) http://www.ryan-williams.net/hacker-news-hiring-trends/2015/april.html?compare1=Ruby&compare2=Javascript&compare3=Java&compare4=Rails http://www.ryan-williams.net/hacker-news-hiring-trends/2015/... http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=Ruby%2C+Rails%2C+javascript%2C+java&l= http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=Ruby%2C+Rails%2C+javascrip...
  - moe 12y ago
    In TIOBE index of programming language popularity (based on web searches), Ruby is ranked 18th, down from 11th The TIOBE method is rather meaningless below rank 10 (and probably above, too). The delta between spot 10 and spot 20 in their ladder is a mere 1.1 points (of 100). Do you really believe Delphi and ABAP are more popular than Ruby, as their table claims? It is supported by overall job trends Huh? In both of your linked charts Ruby is trending upwards.
    - brd 12y ago
jasode 12y ago
>I honestly can't see it staying king once browsers can support other languages. But your profile says: >", begrudgingly beginning to accept the browsers are never going to give us the freedom to choose." It looks like you've got some cognitive dissonance happening there. :-) In any case, I can't think of any example in computing history where a language that's adopted by multiple companies is then abandoned for another language. In Javascript's case, it would require that Microsoft IE AND Apple Safari AND Google Chrome AND Mozilla FF AND countless other web browsers (Opera, embedded, etc) switch to something else in lockstep. In the decades of computing history, I've never seen that type coordination ever happen. Similar language entrenchment on the scale of Javascript would be something like SQL and C++. SQL (1974) is implemented by Oracle/Microsoft/MySql/PostgreSQL/HiveHadoop/etc. A better query language could be designed (e.g. syntax of tables first then columns). However, it's just theoretical because you can't get all database vendors to adopt it lockstep. We are stuck with SQL for the next 50 years. C++ (1983) entrenchment also can't be dislodged. It is implemented by the well-known big-3 of GCC, Clang, and Microsoft but you also have independent compiler implementations from Intel, HP, Sun, IBM, embedded chips, etc. The newer systems languages such as D and Rust are interesting but they will not get adopted and implemented by all those vendors. It's just not going to happen. Look to the multi-decade history of SQL and C++/C and that's the depth of entrenchment you're looking at for Javascript. Better designed languages have not overcome the inertia in the industry and we have no evidence so far that it ever will. Therefore, Javascript will be with us for the next 50+ years. Probably the best chance for making Javascript irrelevant was the brief plugins movement of Java applets, Adobe Flash, and MS Silverlight. Well, the marketplace of ideas (mobile phones) killed all of those off. What's left standing is Javascript.
- mattmanser 12y ago
  I almost left that sentence out. I'm getting my hopes (tragically) up again. But now it doesn't get abandoned, it just needs someone to crack using it as an assembly language. Who knows. But that's my point.
  - mcintyre1994 12y ago
    Even if Javascript did become an assembly like language with multiple well used languages compiling to it, wouldn't something like npm still make a lot of sense? Then all these separate languages won't need to reinvent package management and every package every time.
jwcooper 12y ago
NPM also offers NPM enterprise, which is $20/user/month. That adds up if a few big companies want a privately hosted NPM infrastructure. I'd assume they continue to launch more services as time goes on.
jfroma 12y ago
In addition to every other response, one interesting thing about your comment is that first you mention "node" , then javascript/browser, etc. which is the exact history of npm. It started for node.js then someone did browserify which IMHO makes the best package manager for front end developers, there is some people using it even for C. Typescript/coffescript/css whatever. If you see the home page of npm it says "npm is the package manager for:" and the word keeps changing with a lot of use cases. I think JavaScript has a bright future still, but in addition to that can npm or the ideas survive the language and be used in other contexts?
swang 12y ago
> "50/50 chance node will completely collapse within 10 years or so" Wow, way to be real assertive with that statement. Hedging your bets for a prediction that won't really matter in 10 years. I am not sure why you think ruby is dead considering the amount of Rails apps and the ecosystem that surrounds it. If you read about their seed round, one reason investors invested is because a lot of other companies rely on npm/node. So their thinking process is that even if npm is not profitable, it at least makes their other investments more robust by making something that other companies rely on much stronger.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
Everhusk 12y ago
Github was founded 7 years ago and now does "millions of dollars a year" [1], NPM was founded 6 years ago (and only became a company last year). There are 140,362 total packages (where github was in 2010-2011) on NPM and 21 million repositories on Github now. Javascript is growing, NPM is the hub for all things javascript, so as long as things keep going the way they are, I don't think it is a stretch that NPM can be making that Github money. [1] https://www.quora.com/How-much-money-does-GitHub-make https://www.quora.com/How-much-money-does-GitHub-make [2] https://growthhackers.com/companies/github/ https://growthhackers.com/companies/github/
- mattmanser 12y ago
  Yes, it is a stretch. A huge % of individual programmers want private source control as a quick and easy backup of their code. It is also completely language agnostic and will only fall into jeopardy if a new, better source control system comes out (and then they subsequently don't support it). That is not the case with npm and never will be.
_greim_ 12y ago
> I honestly can't see it staying king once browsers can support other languages. Well browser support for other languages will only come in the form of things transpiling to JS or subsets of JS. It seems unlikely that whole other runtimes would ever become a thing. I mean look at Dart.
angersock 12y ago
And that's being generous, javascript is a controversial language and the standards committee moves very slowly. There are two types of languages: those that everybody complains about, and those that nobody uses. Also, a slow standards committee is a good thing for languages, as it prevents the natural cancerous tendencies of PL wonks--just look at C++ or Scala.
- eurleif 12y ago
  Uh, are you implying the C++ standards committee moves quickly?
  - angersock 12y ago
    '11 and '14 came out in pretty quick succession, as an example.
- frowaway001 12y ago
  > as it prevents the natural cancerous tendencies of PL wonks--just look at C++ or Scala Not sure if your examples are supporting your point. Number of language features implemented in the last version: C++ -- Hundreds. Scala -- None. Number of language features planned for the next version: C++ -- Hundreds. Scala -- None.

Igglyboo 12y ago

> I honestly can't see it staying king once browsers can support other languages. Theres no way this happens anytime soon. Google already tried that with Dart and it failed.

moron4hire 12y ago
It's funny how people forget that IE had supported multiple languages for a very long time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer#Architecture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer#Architecture Internet Explorer does not include any native scripting functionality. Rather, MSHTML.dll exposes an API that permit a programmer to develop a scripting environment to be plugged-in and to access the DOM tree. Internet Explorer 8 includes the bindings for the Active Scripting engine, which is a part of Microsoft Windows and allows any language implemented as an Active Scripting module to be used for client-side scripting. By default, only the JScript and VBScript modules are provided; third party implementations like ScreamingMonkey (for ECMAScript 4 support) can also be used. Microsoft also makes available the Microsoft Silverlight runtime (not supported in Windows RT) that allows CLI languages, including DLR-based dynamic languages like IronPython and IronRuby, to be used for client-side scripting.
- Igglyboo 12y ago
  IE did but we're talking in the context of the web as a whole. An IE-only language in 2015 would be DOA.
- Touche 12y ago
  No one forgot, it just failed like the parent's example of Dart.
- untog 12y ago
  Right. Any how widely used is that?
- pcwalton 12y ago
  Gecko too for a while (because there was concern that VBScript would catch on, AFAIK), though it was eventually removed. The nsIProgrammingLanguage enum is the last vestige of this support: https://dxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/xpcom/base/nsIProgrammingLanguage.idl https://dxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/xpcom/base/ns...
ahoge 12y ago
Many of the bigger "JavaScript" projects aren't written in JavaScript. Browsers support any language. As long as they compile to JavaScript, that is. Also, Dart just works fine. Inside browsers as JavaScript and outside browsers in its own VM. This was written in Dart, for example: http://adsense.blogspot.com/2015/04/new-adsense-performance-reports.html http://adsense.blogspot.com/2015/04/new-adsense-performance-... You really don't have to use JS if you don't want to.

ccallebs 12y ago

It doesn't matter if Npm is ever profitable. If an investor puts money into Npm, they are indirectly adding value to every company that uses Npm. Making sure that a comprehensive dependency manager exists for JavaScript helps every company that uses JavaScript. Additionally, neither JavaScript or Ruby is nearing their "swan song". Other languages will come out. The current languages will persist.

rezistik 12y ago
Exactly. If they invest in 10 companies built on Node and therefore NPM they are investing in 11 companies by investing in NPM. They are purchasing security of their open source tools.

awinder 12y ago

Assumes they are only ever going to launch this one product. Also it's $7 for an individual account, they're launching corporate accounts which I would assume will be priced accordingly. There's enough pain points around the Node.JS infrastructure / tooling that NPM, Inc. probably has some great verticals to explore, and they probably sold the investors on as much. As for Node.JS dying, anything is possible I guess. PHP is still a monster and I don't think I'll ever understand why that happened completely. Node.js has a good story to tell and from my exp. a lot of PHP / frontend developers found easier transitions to Node.JS than other languages / stacks.

swang 12y ago
This is their second product. They have a private npm repo service, aka npm enterprise.

rifung 12y ago

What's so controversial about Javascript? I'm not denying your claims; I just started using it a bit and so far really like it. Then again, I'm coming from Java so maybe I just appreciate not having to use OOP and being able to use functions everywhere. And isn't Ruby also controversial? At least it seems like people either really like it or don't like it. Everyone I have talked to seems to agree that the only reason Ruby really took off is due to Rails.

Zergy 12y ago
Being controversial is not a big deal if it is optional. You simply can not do modern web development without JavaScript. There are tons of alternatives to Ruby.

moe 12y ago

You only have to see how fast Ruby was a darling and even now might be regarded on its swan song By what metric, your personal preference? Because the common statistics[1][2][3] don't quite support your remark. And I'd say there's a 50/50 chance node will completely collapse within 10 years or so. Again, just making random stuff up? As much as I'd love for javascript to disappear, the idea of that happening within a decade is nothing short of ridiculous. [1] http://langpop.com/ http://langpop.com/ [2] http://githut.info/ http://githut.info/ [3] https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=ruby%2C%20rails%2C%20javascript%2C%20node%2C%20java&cmpt=q&tz= https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=ruby%2C%20rails%2C%2...

Irene 12y ago
Commenting on the popularity of languages: In TIOBE index of programming language popularity (based on web searches), Ruby is ranked 18th, down from 11th in April 2014. It fluctuates, but the trend is downward - 14th in November 2014, 13th in November 2013 and 11th in January 2013. Javascript is still rising. http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.... It is supported by overall job trends (vs those for ycombinator-backed startups and github popularity) http://www.ryan-williams.net/hacker-news-hiring-trends/2015/april.html?compare1=Ruby&compare2=Javascript&compare3=Java&compare4=Rails http://www.ryan-williams.net/hacker-news-hiring-trends/2015/... http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=Ruby%2C+Rails%2C+javascript%2C+java&l= http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=Ruby%2C+Rails%2C+javascrip...
- moe 12y ago
  In TIOBE index of programming language popularity (based on web searches), Ruby is ranked 18th, down from 11th The TIOBE method is rather meaningless below rank 10 (and probably above, too). The delta between spot 10 and spot 20 in their ladder is a mere 1.1 points (of 100). Do you really believe Delphi and ABAP are more popular than Ruby, as their table claims? It is supported by overall job trends Huh? In both of your linked charts Ruby is trending upwards.
  - brd 12y ago

jasode 12y ago

>I honestly can't see it staying king once browsers can support other languages. But your profile says: >", begrudgingly beginning to accept the browsers are never going to give us the freedom to choose." It looks like you've got some cognitive dissonance happening there. :-) In any case, I can't think of any example in computing history where a language that's adopted by multiple companies is then abandoned for another language. In Javascript's case, it would require that Microsoft IE AND Apple Safari AND Google Chrome AND Mozilla FF AND countless other web browsers (Opera, embedded, etc) switch to something else in lockstep. In the decades of computing history, I've never seen that type coordination ever happen. Similar language entrenchment on the scale of Javascript would be something like SQL and C++. SQL (1974) is implemented by Oracle/Microsoft/MySql/PostgreSQL/HiveHadoop/etc. A better query language could be designed (e.g. syntax of tables first then columns). However, it's just theoretical because you can't get all database vendors to adopt it lockstep. We are stuck with SQL for the next 50 years. C++ (1983) entrenchment also can't be dislodged. It is implemented by the well-known big-3 of GCC, Clang, and Microsoft but you also have independent compiler implementations from Intel, HP, Sun, IBM, embedded chips, etc. The newer systems languages such as D and Rust are interesting but they will not get adopted and implemented by all those vendors. It's just not going to happen. Look to the multi-decade history of SQL and C++/C and that's the depth of entrenchment you're looking at for Javascript. Better designed languages have not overcome the inertia in the industry and we have no evidence so far that it ever will. Therefore, Javascript will be with us for the next 50+ years. Probably the best chance for making Javascript irrelevant was the brief plugins movement of Java applets, Adobe Flash, and MS Silverlight. Well, the marketplace of ideas (mobile phones) killed all of those off. What's left standing is Javascript.

mattmanser 12y ago
I almost left that sentence out. I'm getting my hopes (tragically) up again. But now it doesn't get abandoned, it just needs someone to crack using it as an assembly language. Who knows. But that's my point.
- mcintyre1994 12y ago
  Even if Javascript did become an assembly like language with multiple well used languages compiling to it, wouldn't something like npm still make a lot of sense? Then all these separate languages won't need to reinvent package management and every package every time.

jwcooper 12y ago

NPM also offers NPM enterprise, which is $20/user/month. That adds up if a few big companies want a privately hosted NPM infrastructure. I'd assume they continue to launch more services as time goes on.

jfroma 12y ago

In addition to every other response, one interesting thing about your comment is that first you mention "node" , then javascript/browser, etc. which is the exact history of npm. It started for node.js then someone did browserify which IMHO makes the best package manager for front end developers, there is some people using it even for C. Typescript/coffescript/css whatever. If you see the home page of npm it says "npm is the package manager for:" and the word keeps changing with a lot of use cases. I think JavaScript has a bright future still, but in addition to that can npm or the ideas survive the language and be used in other contexts?

swang 12y ago

> "50/50 chance node will completely collapse within 10 years or so" Wow, way to be real assertive with that statement. Hedging your bets for a prediction that won't really matter in 10 years. I am not sure why you think ruby is dead considering the amount of Rails apps and the ecosystem that surrounds it. If you read about their seed round, one reason investors invested is because a lot of other companies rely on npm/node. So their thinking process is that even if npm is not profitable, it at least makes their other investments more robust by making something that other companies rely on much stronger.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

Everhusk 12y ago

Github was founded 7 years ago and now does "millions of dollars a year" [1], NPM was founded 6 years ago (and only became a company last year). There are 140,362 total packages (where github was in 2010-2011) on NPM and 21 million repositories on Github now. Javascript is growing, NPM is the hub for all things javascript, so as long as things keep going the way they are, I don't think it is a stretch that NPM can be making that Github money. [1] https://www.quora.com/How-much-money-does-GitHub-make https://www.quora.com/How-much-money-does-GitHub-make [2] https://growthhackers.com/companies/github/ https://growthhackers.com/companies/github/

mattmanser 12y ago
Yes, it is a stretch. A huge % of individual programmers want private source control as a quick and easy backup of their code. It is also completely language agnostic and will only fall into jeopardy if a new, better source control system comes out (and then they subsequently don't support it). That is not the case with npm and never will be.

_greim_ 12y ago

> I honestly can't see it staying king once browsers can support other languages. Well browser support for other languages will only come in the form of things transpiling to JS or subsets of JS. It seems unlikely that whole other runtimes would ever become a thing. I mean look at Dart.

angersock 12y ago

And that's being generous, javascript is a controversial language and the standards committee moves very slowly. There are two types of languages: those that everybody complains about, and those that nobody uses. Also, a slow standards committee is a good thing for languages, as it prevents the natural cancerous tendencies of PL wonks--just look at C++ or Scala.

eurleif 12y ago
Uh, are you implying the C++ standards committee moves quickly?
- angersock 12y ago
  '11 and '14 came out in pretty quick succession, as an example.
frowaway001 12y ago
> as it prevents the natural cancerous tendencies of PL wonks--just look at C++ or Scala Not sure if your examples are supporting your point. Number of language features implemented in the last version: C++ -- Hundreds. Scala -- None. Number of language features planned for the next version: C++ -- Hundreds. Scala -- None.