8 ms·

It's been an ambition of mine to work in some certain tech companies that are notoriously difficult to get into. The type of job I am going for I am easily capa

by drcross 12y ago

It's been an ambition of mine to work in some certain tech companies that are notoriously difficult to get into. The type of job I am going for I am easily capable of doing. While i'm working hard to better myself the thought hasnt escaped me that if I was a woman who had the same experience and qualifications that I have I would have a far better chance of getting the position. This is the definition of sexism.

humanfromearth 12y ago
Given the underrepresentation of women in tech I think I'm ok with them being chosen over satisfying your ambitions. Also working hard to better yourself is a continuous process and it doesn't stop when you get hired at BigCorp, continue doing so and you'll get results no matter your gender.
- steamy 12y ago
  Given the underrepresentation of women in tech I think I'm ok with them being chosen over satisfying your ambitions. What's this supposed to mean? Is this some sort of reverse sexism? Reparation in kind for the gentle sex?
  - timwaagh 12y ago
    its called feminism and its pretty scary
    - josinalvo 12y ago
      before you downvote this preciding comment (or mine, for that matter), allow me a challenge: If you pick 10 woman who self-identified as feminists at random, how many do you predict will find this 2:1 ratio a good thing ? I predict 7 or more.
  - cmiles74 12y ago
    Perhaps the poster was pointing out that the under-representation of women in technology is an actual, real world problem that needs to be solved. This one male's ambitions is not really comparable.
    - steamy 12y ago
      How many female participants we got here on HN? Is it safe to say that male members outnumber their female counterparts? If so, what's the reason or the catalyst behind this disparity in interest and participation rate between sexes?
    - thsealienbstrds 12y ago
      What do you mean, women are under-represented in tech? As in: it needs to be 50/50 men and women? Or as in: the ratio of men/women working in tech should reflect the ratio of men/women who'd like to have a tech job?
- ra1n85 12y ago
  >Given the underrepresentation of women in tech I think I'm ok with them being chosen over satisfying your ambitions. There is so much wrong with this. You do no justice to anyone when you discount merit in the pursuit of ham-handed ratios.
  - themartorana 12y ago
    Agreed. A company that hires no women will likely be at a disadvantage to the competition. Hiring diversely is an asset. While I'd like to fast-forward to a time where gender is in fact equal in most things, I think a much better way to start is to remove gender, race, etc. from college and work applications altogether. What would happen if we let merit and drive determine outcomes above all other things? Maybe there are caveats I'm not considering.
    - dylukes 12y ago
      More likely than not people start yelling loudly about who's advertising their skills better. In the end not enough businesses and institutions are equipped to accurately assess skill. So rather than being hired based on skill, what you'd really be hired based on is perceived skill. The people who can sell themselves and spin their skills will continue to thrive, the people who can't but have skills will find niches to do their work, and the people who don't have either will complain that the first two groups are being "pushy" or have an unfair advantage because they're selling themselves better. Something like that. Edit: even if we could measure skill... how? I don't suspect it's always an objectively measurable thing. e.g. most people who seek out psychiatric help want to find someone who is good fit for them and they can trust and talk to, not the "state's top ranked psychiatrist" (who is inherently intimidating).
      - kaybe 12y ago
        Here is a relevant paper for this: https://www.nber.org/papers/w5903 https://www.nber.org/papers/w5903 (1997) Essentially, they found that switching to blind auditing for orchestra musician positions raised the ratio of women hired severalfold. Thus, people' skill is (was?) rated lower if it is known they are female.
- jstedfast 12y ago
  What happened to hiring people based on merit?
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - weland 12y ago
    It became bad PR.
  - dylukes 12y ago
    Something like this became a bit of a meme. http://geekfeminism.org/2009/11/29/questioning-the-merit-of-meritocracy/ http://geekfeminism.org/2009/11/29/questioning-the-merit-of-...
  - briandear 12y ago
    There are folks of certain political persuasions that would suggest that you are ignorant of the struggle and your white privilege is manifesting itself. This is exactly why I don't understand the "we need a woman president" malarkey. No, we need competent people regardless of their color or genatalia. This idea that we 'need' more this or more that is actually sexist and/or racist by definition.
  - GFK_of_xmaspast 12y ago
    You might as well ask 'what happened to bigfoot'.
  - AlexandrB 12y ago
    When has this ever happened in reality? Every other week I see a HN link about how hard it is to actually identify talent and how companies continue to screw it up (hence: hire slow, fire fast). Many hires (especially of A peoople) tend happen on the basis of personal networks as well. While merit plays a role, pretending that before affirmative action hiring was merit-based is naive at best. Given this, I'd like you to please consider that the perception that a specific gender or race is worse at tech may be a bigger influence in an interview than the objective merit or lack thereof that candidate has (something that's impossible to measure in knowledge-work anyways).
- smtddr 12y ago
  >>Given the underrepresentation of women in tech I think I'm ok with them being chosen over satisfying your ambitions. This sounds like Affirmative-action; while having good intentions did not work out quite like they hoped. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action , search for the word "Negative". Also, I wouldn't want my coworkers thinking I only got the job because I'm a black male. Even I myself don't like the idea that I might have gotten something only because someone else saw me as a charity case or I'm just the "token black guy" so the company can prove "See? We got a black guy! We're cool & hip now!" Replace "black male" with "woman" and I still believe my statement is true for most people.
  - humanfromearth 12y ago
    Ok. I see your point. Positive discrimination is harmful, but I think it only applies when it's abused. From my vantage point I don't think we are there. Do you think that any amount of positive discrimination is harmful for a given population?
    - dylukes 12y ago
      Ask someone anywhere in the lower-middle range who's sent a kid (moreso boy than girl) to college recently how they feel about whether we're there or not.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
  - humanfromearth 12y ago
    Sharing a personal anecdote: I'm somebody who was part of this affirmative action population. I come from the poorest country in Europe called Moldova, the unemployment is high, education low, your typical eastern-european anti-intelectual culture, you get the idea.. Anyway.. when I was 15 I got a scholarship in Romania because there were quotas for us 'moldavians'. At the time Romania was not much better off than Moldova, but certainly when it comes to math and CS to me at least it looked years ahead of the programs we had in Moldova! So I packed my bags and left for a much better education and what I would say now without reservation: a better life. Looking back I think I was very lucky to have gotten the education and exposure to an environment with great teachers/programmers. Maybe I could have succeeded in Moldova, who knows.. It's possible I suppose, but unlikely.
loudmax 12y ago
A few suggestions to put yourself on an even playing field with women. * Focus your job search on assistant professor positions at universities rather than notoriously selective tech companies. * Make it understood that you may need at least three months of paternity leave should you become a parent. * Reduce your salary requirement to about 80 cents on the dollar.
- dijit 12y ago
  if you remove the last point you'll have an argument. but the gender gap has been widely and publicly disproved, females in the same industry as men tend to earn -more- money than their male brethren. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christina-hoff-sommers/wage-gap_b_2073804.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christina-hoff-sommers/wage-ga...
  - ceejayoz 12y ago
    I hope you have better citations for the gender gap being disproved than a HuffPost op-ed by someone from the American Enterprise Institute.
    - dijit 12y ago
      http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303532704579483752909957472 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240527023035327045794837... http://mises.org/library/what%E2%80%99s-behind-gender-wage-gap http://mises.org/library/what%E2%80%99s-behind-gender-wage-g... http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/time-to-ditch-this-obsession-with-the-gender-pay-gap/16759 http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/time-to-ditch-t... http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-gender-pay-gap-is-a-complete-myth/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-gender-pay-gap-is-a-complete... http://theconversation.com/defending-the-indefensible-myths-about-the-gender-pay-gap-37919 http://theconversation.com/defending-the-indefensible-myths-... http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/01/no-women-don-t-make-less-money-than-men.html http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/01/no-women-do... http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/04/16/its-time-that-we-end-the-equal-pay-myth/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/04/16/its-time-tha... http://billmoyers.com/2014/04/08/debunking-the-myth-of-a-mythical-gender-pay-gap/ http://billmoyers.com/2014/04/08/debunking-the-myth-of-a-myt... http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-the-gender-pay-gap/2014/07/25/9e5cff34-fcd5-11e3-8176-f2c941cf35f1_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-the-... http://blog.independent.org/2015/04/07/the-gender-wage-gap-a-myth-that-just-wont-die/ http://blog.independent.org/2015/04/07/the-gender-wage-gap-a... I'm not being a prick, but I picked the first article that appeared on google.. there are many more and, like I said.. it's -widely- disproven. I can't reply to the posters below, a scientific paper, sure: http://www.pezzottaitejournals.net/index.php/IJOBMP/article/view/1870 http://www.pezzottaitejournals.net/index.php/IJOBMP/article/...
adamors 12y ago
So if a woman is hired instead of you it means the company is being sexist towards you, not that perhaps she was better than you? How isn't the irony smacking you in the face?
ryanx435 12y ago
put your gender as woman. if they retract their offer when they find out, sue for discrimination.
- yummyfajitas 12y ago
  Good idea, but it doesn't really work in academia. When I applied for academic jobs, every offer I got was from someone who knew either me or my adviser. As far as I know this is the typical situation.
- ceejayoz 12y ago
  Trying to sue because they found out you falsified your application is going to be something of an uphill battle.
brudgers 12y ago
certain tech companies Other than Stanford, the Venn diagram of tech companies and US educational institutions has little overlap. The applicability of the study's conclusion to normal commercial concerns is dubious.
cheatsheet 12y ago
It is sexism, and it's unfortunate. I'm a woman, and I pretend to be a man online so my comments and understandings of computer science, code, programming, and mathematics are treated with the same respect, and given the same kind of responses and feedback. I've tried numerous times to out myself as female and it's clear that there is consistently a difference in the way I'm spoken to as a woman and as a man. I will probably move onto another alias as I typically do, but I think it is necessary to point out that both genders suffer due to any kind of discrimination. I feel like people hold me back by judging my abilities by my gender. I get angry thinking about how much more I might have been able to learn if I was a man, and I resolve that with studying independently, and fighting in whatever way I can to make sure I can gain the same knowledge base as anyone else should be able to. One of the few things I am proud of is that I have managed to cultivate an online personality image that is often mistaken for an older man. I don't know when I will stop believing that I am inferior at the things I've spent my entire life studying, but I hope I will soon, because it is extremely depressing. I don't know what my experiences are the definition of, because I know they are biased by an extremely limited set of data. The point is, I guess - keep your eyes on what really matters to you, and always keep that goal in sight. It's very easy to turn a superficial cultural assumption that actually doesn't happen that often, into a self defeatist attitude, and all that attitude does is get in your way of achieving.
- dijit 12y ago
  Forgive me, but I don't think you'd have gained much more understanding of systems. this industry, if you're not born in the right geographical location is a complete impossibility unless you are an autodidact. Personally growing up where I was there was 0 incentive to work in computers- no courses, even anything bearing on technical was cut due to lack of interest. So I taught myself. I find that this is probably the best way to learn. You might have been held back due to gender- I can't possibly know. But I wouldn't consider it a bad thing, probably the extra fight taught you to appreciate what you were learning in the first place. on the flip side, I resonate with the top commenter- had I been born a woman I do feel I'd have more chances of getting a job in some hard to access companies (whether that's true or not is completely debatable of course). Even though I'm sure there are people who condescend [you] outside of [your] career.. at least online you can mask [your] gender (sad that you'd have to but bigots be bigots), but I cannot become a woman for a job interview.

by drcross 12y ago

humanfromearth 12y ago

Given the underrepresentation of women in tech I think I'm ok with them being chosen over satisfying your ambitions. Also working hard to better yourself is a continuous process and it doesn't stop when you get hired at BigCorp, continue doing so and you'll get results no matter your gender.

steamy 12y ago
Given the underrepresentation of women in tech I think I'm ok with them being chosen over satisfying your ambitions. What's this supposed to mean? Is this some sort of reverse sexism? Reparation in kind for the gentle sex?
- timwaagh 12y ago
  its called feminism and its pretty scary
  - josinalvo 12y ago
    before you downvote this preciding comment (or mine, for that matter), allow me a challenge: If you pick 10 woman who self-identified as feminists at random, how many do you predict will find this 2:1 ratio a good thing ? I predict 7 or more.
- cmiles74 12y ago
  Perhaps the poster was pointing out that the under-representation of women in technology is an actual, real world problem that needs to be solved. This one male's ambitions is not really comparable.
  - steamy 12y ago
    How many female participants we got here on HN? Is it safe to say that male members outnumber their female counterparts? If so, what's the reason or the catalyst behind this disparity in interest and participation rate between sexes?
  - thsealienbstrds 12y ago
    What do you mean, women are under-represented in tech? As in: it needs to be 50/50 men and women? Or as in: the ratio of men/women working in tech should reflect the ratio of men/women who'd like to have a tech job?
ra1n85 12y ago
>Given the underrepresentation of women in tech I think I'm ok with them being chosen over satisfying your ambitions. There is so much wrong with this. You do no justice to anyone when you discount merit in the pursuit of ham-handed ratios.
- themartorana 12y ago
  Agreed. A company that hires no women will likely be at a disadvantage to the competition. Hiring diversely is an asset. While I'd like to fast-forward to a time where gender is in fact equal in most things, I think a much better way to start is to remove gender, race, etc. from college and work applications altogether. What would happen if we let merit and drive determine outcomes above all other things? Maybe there are caveats I'm not considering.
  - dylukes 12y ago
    More likely than not people start yelling loudly about who's advertising their skills better. In the end not enough businesses and institutions are equipped to accurately assess skill. So rather than being hired based on skill, what you'd really be hired based on is perceived skill. The people who can sell themselves and spin their skills will continue to thrive, the people who can't but have skills will find niches to do their work, and the people who don't have either will complain that the first two groups are being "pushy" or have an unfair advantage because they're selling themselves better. Something like that. Edit: even if we could measure skill... how? I don't suspect it's always an objectively measurable thing. e.g. most people who seek out psychiatric help want to find someone who is good fit for them and they can trust and talk to, not the "state's top ranked psychiatrist" (who is inherently intimidating).
    - kaybe 12y ago
      Here is a relevant paper for this: https://www.nber.org/papers/w5903 https://www.nber.org/papers/w5903 (1997) Essentially, they found that switching to blind auditing for orchestra musician positions raised the ratio of women hired severalfold. Thus, people' skill is (was?) rated lower if it is known they are female.
jstedfast 12y ago
What happened to hiring people based on merit?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- weland 12y ago
  It became bad PR.
- dylukes 12y ago
  Something like this became a bit of a meme. http://geekfeminism.org/2009/11/29/questioning-the-merit-of-meritocracy/ http://geekfeminism.org/2009/11/29/questioning-the-merit-of-...
- briandear 12y ago
  There are folks of certain political persuasions that would suggest that you are ignorant of the struggle and your white privilege is manifesting itself. This is exactly why I don't understand the "we need a woman president" malarkey. No, we need competent people regardless of their color or genatalia. This idea that we 'need' more this or more that is actually sexist and/or racist by definition.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 12y ago
  You might as well ask 'what happened to bigfoot'.
- AlexandrB 12y ago
  When has this ever happened in reality? Every other week I see a HN link about how hard it is to actually identify talent and how companies continue to screw it up (hence: hire slow, fire fast). Many hires (especially of A peoople) tend happen on the basis of personal networks as well. While merit plays a role, pretending that before affirmative action hiring was merit-based is naive at best. Given this, I'd like you to please consider that the perception that a specific gender or race is worse at tech may be a bigger influence in an interview than the objective merit or lack thereof that candidate has (something that's impossible to measure in knowledge-work anyways).
smtddr 12y ago
>>Given the underrepresentation of women in tech I think I'm ok with them being chosen over satisfying your ambitions. This sounds like Affirmative-action; while having good intentions did not work out quite like they hoped. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action , search for the word "Negative". Also, I wouldn't want my coworkers thinking I only got the job because I'm a black male. Even I myself don't like the idea that I might have gotten something only because someone else saw me as a charity case or I'm just the "token black guy" so the company can prove "See? We got a black guy! We're cool & hip now!" Replace "black male" with "woman" and I still believe my statement is true for most people.
- humanfromearth 12y ago
  Ok. I see your point. Positive discrimination is harmful, but I think it only applies when it's abused. From my vantage point I don't think we are there. Do you think that any amount of positive discrimination is harmful for a given population?
  - dylukes 12y ago
    Ask someone anywhere in the lower-middle range who's sent a kid (moreso boy than girl) to college recently how they feel about whether we're there or not.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- humanfromearth 12y ago
  Sharing a personal anecdote: I'm somebody who was part of this affirmative action population. I come from the poorest country in Europe called Moldova, the unemployment is high, education low, your typical eastern-european anti-intelectual culture, you get the idea.. Anyway.. when I was 15 I got a scholarship in Romania because there were quotas for us 'moldavians'. At the time Romania was not much better off than Moldova, but certainly when it comes to math and CS to me at least it looked years ahead of the programs we had in Moldova! So I packed my bags and left for a much better education and what I would say now without reservation: a better life. Looking back I think I was very lucky to have gotten the education and exposure to an environment with great teachers/programmers. Maybe I could have succeeded in Moldova, who knows.. It's possible I suppose, but unlikely.

loudmax 12y ago

A few suggestions to put yourself on an even playing field with women. * Focus your job search on assistant professor positions at universities rather than notoriously selective tech companies. * Make it understood that you may need at least three months of paternity leave should you become a parent. * Reduce your salary requirement to about 80 cents on the dollar.

dijit 12y ago
if you remove the last point you'll have an argument. but the gender gap has been widely and publicly disproved, females in the same industry as men tend to earn -more- money than their male brethren. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christina-hoff-sommers/wage-gap_b_2073804.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christina-hoff-sommers/wage-ga...
- ceejayoz 12y ago
  I hope you have better citations for the gender gap being disproved than a HuffPost op-ed by someone from the American Enterprise Institute.
  - dijit 12y ago
    http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303532704579483752909957472 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240527023035327045794837... http://mises.org/library/what%E2%80%99s-behind-gender-wage-gap http://mises.org/library/what%E2%80%99s-behind-gender-wage-g... http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/time-to-ditch-this-obsession-with-the-gender-pay-gap/16759 http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/time-to-ditch-t... http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-gender-pay-gap-is-a-complete-myth/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-gender-pay-gap-is-a-complete... http://theconversation.com/defending-the-indefensible-myths-about-the-gender-pay-gap-37919 http://theconversation.com/defending-the-indefensible-myths-... http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/01/no-women-don-t-make-less-money-than-men.html http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/01/no-women-do... http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/04/16/its-time-that-we-end-the-equal-pay-myth/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/04/16/its-time-tha... http://billmoyers.com/2014/04/08/debunking-the-myth-of-a-mythical-gender-pay-gap/ http://billmoyers.com/2014/04/08/debunking-the-myth-of-a-myt... http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-the-gender-pay-gap/2014/07/25/9e5cff34-fcd5-11e3-8176-f2c941cf35f1_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-the-... http://blog.independent.org/2015/04/07/the-gender-wage-gap-a-myth-that-just-wont-die/ http://blog.independent.org/2015/04/07/the-gender-wage-gap-a... I'm not being a prick, but I picked the first article that appeared on google.. there are many more and, like I said.. it's -widely- disproven. I can't reply to the posters below, a scientific paper, sure: http://www.pezzottaitejournals.net/index.php/IJOBMP/article/view/1870 http://www.pezzottaitejournals.net/index.php/IJOBMP/article/...

adamors 12y ago

So if a woman is hired instead of you it means the company is being sexist towards you, not that perhaps she was better than you? How isn't the irony smacking you in the face?

ryanx435 12y ago

put your gender as woman. if they retract their offer when they find out, sue for discrimination.

yummyfajitas 12y ago
Good idea, but it doesn't really work in academia. When I applied for academic jobs, every offer I got was from someone who knew either me or my adviser. As far as I know this is the typical situation.
ceejayoz 12y ago
Trying to sue because they found out you falsified your application is going to be something of an uphill battle.

brudgers 12y ago

certain tech companies Other than Stanford, the Venn diagram of tech companies and US educational institutions has little overlap. The applicability of the study's conclusion to normal commercial concerns is dubious.

cheatsheet 12y ago

It is sexism, and it's unfortunate. I'm a woman, and I pretend to be a man online so my comments and understandings of computer science, code, programming, and mathematics are treated with the same respect, and given the same kind of responses and feedback. I've tried numerous times to out myself as female and it's clear that there is consistently a difference in the way I'm spoken to as a woman and as a man. I will probably move onto another alias as I typically do, but I think it is necessary to point out that both genders suffer due to any kind of discrimination. I feel like people hold me back by judging my abilities by my gender. I get angry thinking about how much more I might have been able to learn if I was a man, and I resolve that with studying independently, and fighting in whatever way I can to make sure I can gain the same knowledge base as anyone else should be able to. One of the few things I am proud of is that I have managed to cultivate an online personality image that is often mistaken for an older man. I don't know when I will stop believing that I am inferior at the things I've spent my entire life studying, but I hope I will soon, because it is extremely depressing. I don't know what my experiences are the definition of, because I know they are biased by an extremely limited set of data. The point is, I guess - keep your eyes on what really matters to you, and always keep that goal in sight. It's very easy to turn a superficial cultural assumption that actually doesn't happen that often, into a self defeatist attitude, and all that attitude does is get in your way of achieving.

dijit 12y ago
Forgive me, but I don't think you'd have gained much more understanding of systems. this industry, if you're not born in the right geographical location is a complete impossibility unless you are an autodidact. Personally growing up where I was there was 0 incentive to work in computers- no courses, even anything bearing on technical was cut due to lack of interest. So I taught myself. I find that this is probably the best way to learn. You might have been held back due to gender- I can't possibly know. But I wouldn't consider it a bad thing, probably the extra fight taught you to appreciate what you were learning in the first place. on the flip side, I resonate with the top commenter- had I been born a woman I do feel I'd have more chances of getting a job in some hard to access companies (whether that's true or not is completely debatable of course). Even though I'm sure there are people who condescend [you] outside of [your] career.. at least online you can mask [your] gender (sad that you'd have to but bigots be bigots), but I cannot become a woman for a job interview.