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I often wonder if there is a way to fix the dislike/uncomforted of pain without removing it. Rather then bombarding your body to inhibit this feeling.

pygy_ 12y ago
Meditation practitioners manage to dissociate the experience of pain from the emotional response that usually comes with it (with fMRI at least one (edit: two) fMRI study that shows the dissociation as well, in that areas associated with the emotional processing of pain are less turned on by painful stimuli, while the rest of the pain detection areas light up normally). http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304395910006147 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304395910... http://www.jneurosci.org/content/31/14/5540.short http://www.jneurosci.org/content/31/14/5540.short
kranner 12y ago
Meditation is supposed to be able to achieve this. I've experienced it exactly once in a 45-minute session and it only lasted a few minutes. At the time my elbow was hurting quite a bit (I have hemophilia and arthritic damage from frequent bleeds); for that brief duration, I continued to experience the pain but it was akin to observing that an object is a particular colour, rather than suffering personally.
- geomark 12y ago
  Achieving the desired mental states of meditation is hard for most people. We're so used to constantly moving about with our minds flitting from one thing to another Meditation is precisely the opposite of that. But if you do there are many great benefits, including reducing the suffering of physical pain. Like you said, you can reach a mental state where you just observe the physical pain - you know it is there but you don't suffer from it. Disclaimer: I was a Buddhist monk for a while. I meditated a lot.
  - kranner 12y ago
    While the state lasted, it was extremely interesting. It's one thing to read about it, and another to experience it. It's the simplicity that was so surprising. At the time I almost laughed when I remembered how I would normally react to what was just a painful joint. That's when I lost my grip, so to speak, and went back to feeling ow, ow, ow.
    - geomark 12y ago
      Yeah, holding on to that state is a challenge. Need to experience it many times so the mind gets in the habit of just slipping into it. Problem is, when you try too hard to get there you can't. You're grasping, clinging, which defeats you. Gotta let go, as they say. It's subtle, but profound.
maccard 12y ago
I suffer from bad back pain from a slipped disc. Yoga has a surprisingly positive effect on me. Although I can't quite do most of the poses and stretches, the hour or so of stretching has an overwhelmingly soothing effect on the pain and my attitude towards it.
austinjp 12y ago
There's a huge amount of interesting work in this area. Others have mentioned meditation. There are various efforts at mindfulness, acceptance, and so on. The results seem generally positive, but there's a long way to go yet. Those interested may want to have a trawl through the literature, which is of varying quality [1]. It is possible to have pain without tissue "damage"; to have damage without pain; to have pain without suffering [see footnote]. Some work is aimed at manipulating this symbolism within the brain. Most people are probably familiar with mirror-box therapy [2], which is one among several efforts at translating the neuroscience of pain (a-)symbolia into useful clinical practice. Other efforts I find interesting include Graded Motor Imagery [3] and Recognise [4] from the Neuro Orthopaedic Institute. These are both rehabilitative programmes based on the finding that people with chronic musculoskeletal pain often have altered processing of their "body map". A large and fascinating area of research and clinical work. [1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=(acceptance+OR+mindfulness)+AND+(pain) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=(acceptance+OR+mind... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_box http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_box [3] http://www.gradedmotorimagery.com/ http://www.gradedmotorimagery.com/ [4] http://www.noigroup.com/recognise http://www.noigroup.com/recognise [Footnote] Pain without tissue "damage". We can throw any number of tests at people with certain conditions (chronic low back pain is a classic example) and fail to determine anything "wrong" or "damaged". In fact, this may make things worse by uncovering benign issues and treating them, thereby both failing to address the problem, and potentially introducing further iatrogenic side-effects. Now, the fact that we cannot find any "damage" (or tissue change) doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. So this may be a "measurement problem": our investigations are simply not yet sophisticated enough. However it underlines the complex nature of pain (Ronald Melzack's "neuromatrix" theory of pain is probably the most useful we currently have). Damage without pain. Other than in rare disorders where pain is totally absent, everyone can experience damage without pain. Surfers report shark attacks as feeling like a "bump" when they've lost an entire limb. Stabbing or shooting victims can be unaware of what has happened until they see blood. A more easily-imagined example: you twist your ankle while crossing railroad tracks just as a train is hurtling toward you. You get up and run. Only minutes later, when the adrenaline has subsided, do you start to feel ascending pain. Pain without suffering. This is the most important distinction, and something that meditation, mindfulness etc probably address. You can have pain, but do you have to suffer? Certainly suffering can increase if your mood is low, whether through depression, circumstance, or whatever. Different people with "the same" (subjective) injury or tissue damage can report wildly different levels of pain i.e. their suffering is different. When the mechanisms of pain production cannot easily be addressed, psychological interventions to address the suffering become increasingly important. (That's not to say the nociception and pain should be ignored -- they should be addressed too). There are various examples of pain without suffering. Everyone has picked a scab or squeezed a zit or poked a mouth ulcer, knowing it will "hurt" but without that necessarily being bad. There are plenty of other examples, some quite titillating, of folks who seek out pain but certainly aren't suffering. So yes. A large and complex area. (Edit: words.)

pygy_ 12y ago

Meditation practitioners manage to dissociate the experience of pain from the emotional response that usually comes with it (with fMRI at least one (edit: two) fMRI study that shows the dissociation as well, in that areas associated with the emotional processing of pain are less turned on by painful stimuli, while the rest of the pain detection areas light up normally). http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304395910006147 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304395910... http://www.jneurosci.org/content/31/14/5540.short http://www.jneurosci.org/content/31/14/5540.short

kranner 12y ago

Meditation is supposed to be able to achieve this. I've experienced it exactly once in a 45-minute session and it only lasted a few minutes. At the time my elbow was hurting quite a bit (I have hemophilia and arthritic damage from frequent bleeds); for that brief duration, I continued to experience the pain but it was akin to observing that an object is a particular colour, rather than suffering personally.

geomark 12y ago
Achieving the desired mental states of meditation is hard for most people. We're so used to constantly moving about with our minds flitting from one thing to another Meditation is precisely the opposite of that. But if you do there are many great benefits, including reducing the suffering of physical pain. Like you said, you can reach a mental state where you just observe the physical pain - you know it is there but you don't suffer from it. Disclaimer: I was a Buddhist monk for a while. I meditated a lot.
- kranner 12y ago
  While the state lasted, it was extremely interesting. It's one thing to read about it, and another to experience it. It's the simplicity that was so surprising. At the time I almost laughed when I remembered how I would normally react to what was just a painful joint. That's when I lost my grip, so to speak, and went back to feeling ow, ow, ow.
  - geomark 12y ago
    Yeah, holding on to that state is a challenge. Need to experience it many times so the mind gets in the habit of just slipping into it. Problem is, when you try too hard to get there you can't. You're grasping, clinging, which defeats you. Gotta let go, as they say. It's subtle, but profound.

maccard 12y ago

I suffer from bad back pain from a slipped disc. Yoga has a surprisingly positive effect on me. Although I can't quite do most of the poses and stretches, the hour or so of stretching has an overwhelmingly soothing effect on the pain and my attitude towards it.

austinjp 12y ago

There's a huge amount of interesting work in this area. Others have mentioned meditation. There are various efforts at mindfulness, acceptance, and so on. The results seem generally positive, but there's a long way to go yet. Those interested may want to have a trawl through the literature, which is of varying quality [1]. It is possible to have pain without tissue "damage"; to have damage without pain; to have pain without suffering [see footnote]. Some work is aimed at manipulating this symbolism within the brain. Most people are probably familiar with mirror-box therapy [2], which is one among several efforts at translating the neuroscience of pain (a-)symbolia into useful clinical practice. Other efforts I find interesting include Graded Motor Imagery [3] and Recognise [4] from the Neuro Orthopaedic Institute. These are both rehabilitative programmes based on the finding that people with chronic musculoskeletal pain often have altered processing of their "body map". A large and fascinating area of research and clinical work. [1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=(acceptance+OR+mindfulness)+AND+(pain) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=(acceptance+OR+mind... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_box http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_box [3] http://www.gradedmotorimagery.com/ http://www.gradedmotorimagery.com/ [4] http://www.noigroup.com/recognise http://www.noigroup.com/recognise [Footnote] Pain without tissue "damage". We can throw any number of tests at people with certain conditions (chronic low back pain is a classic example) and fail to determine anything "wrong" or "damaged". In fact, this may make things worse by uncovering benign issues and treating them, thereby both failing to address the problem, and potentially introducing further iatrogenic side-effects. Now, the fact that we cannot find any "damage" (or tissue change) doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. So this may be a "measurement problem": our investigations are simply not yet sophisticated enough. However it underlines the complex nature of pain (Ronald Melzack's "neuromatrix" theory of pain is probably the most useful we currently have). Damage without pain. Other than in rare disorders where pain is totally absent, everyone can experience damage without pain. Surfers report shark attacks as feeling like a "bump" when they've lost an entire limb. Stabbing or shooting victims can be unaware of what has happened until they see blood. A more easily-imagined example: you twist your ankle while crossing railroad tracks just as a train is hurtling toward you. You get up and run. Only minutes later, when the adrenaline has subsided, do you start to feel ascending pain. Pain without suffering. This is the most important distinction, and something that meditation, mindfulness etc probably address. You can have pain, but do you have to suffer? Certainly suffering can increase if your mood is low, whether through depression, circumstance, or whatever. Different people with "the same" (subjective) injury or tissue damage can report wildly different levels of pain i.e. their suffering is different. When the mechanisms of pain production cannot easily be addressed, psychological interventions to address the suffering become increasingly important. (That's not to say the nociception and pain should be ignored -- they should be addressed too). There are various examples of pain without suffering. Everyone has picked a scab or squeezed a zit or poked a mouth ulcer, knowing it will "hurt" but without that necessarily being bad. There are plenty of other examples, some quite titillating, of folks who seek out pain but certainly aren't suffering. So yes. A large and complex area. (Edit: words.)