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The Singapore MRT and Bus System was one of the primary reasons inspiring me to relocate to Singapore. I used to live at Lake Merrit in Oakland on 17th, from 1

The Singapore MRT and Bus System was one of the primary reasons inspiring me to relocate to Singapore. I used to live at Lake Merrit in Oakland on 17th, from 1996-1997, used the Bart almost every day - I don't recall ever using the public washrooms - don't recall how available they were. I've used them several times in Singapore, and 90% of the time they've been excellent - the other 10% of the time they were just heavily trafficked, but not "Dirty" - just puddles of water near the sinks, lots of paper towels in the garbage. I do recall reading a front page story in the Straits Times about how the MRT had been hiring cleaning consultants to improve their already ridiculous (by my estimate) high levels of cleanliness. I would love someone to do an analysis of all the horrible failures in San Francisco/Transit and compare them to Singapore, so we can understand why the heck one is doing so well, and the other one is so abysmal.

plongeur 12y ago
Well, with regards to what "Westeners" nowadays consider civilized - Singapore is lagging behind SF I'd care to argue. Just consider gay rights and expressing affection in public - so in that respect there is rather an anti-correlation between cleanliness of public facilities and cultural development.
- ghshephard 12y ago
  Public Displays of affection, beyond holding hands, doesn't have any rock solid claim on being "civilized" in my books - so, I'll call that more a question of currently fashionable behavior, much akin to public nudity (the recognizing of which probably has a better claim to being civilized in my books). As far as gay rights, agreed - Singapore is behind the curve on officially recognizing gay marriage. With that said, it's not as though Singapore is actually enforcing any of these laws - Singapore has a pretty active gay community/nightlife: http://blog.happymassage.com/the-gay-bars-guidance-in-singapore/ http://blog.happymassage.com/the-gay-bars-guidance-in-singap...
  - seszett 12y ago
    > Public Displays of affection, beyond holding hands, doesn't have any rock solid claim on being "civilized" in my books - so, I'll call that more a question of currently fashionable behavior, much akin to public nudity (the recognizing of which probably has a better claim to being civilized in my books). The civilized definition of being civilized is not to accept things depending on your personal opinion of what is civilized and what is not, but rather to not criminalize things that have no rational reason to be criminalized. Public displays of affection, just like public nudity, gay marriage or chewing gum, are simply not reasonable things to make illegal.
ozmbie 12y ago
Singapore's public restrooms are clean because they can afford to hire armies of 60 year old cleaners with no minimum wage. I'd argue they are actually TOO clean. Because half the time I want to use them, they are being cleaned! It's a bunch of busywork to employee the otherwise unemployable. They clean bathrooms and sweep up leaves over and over again.
- rwmj 12y ago
  I'm having a hard time understanding what's bad about this. If they are otherwise unemployable, then it's good that they are doing this isn't it?
  - lmm 12y ago
    If they're not doing anything actually productive, wouldn't it be better to pay them the money and let them spend the time on something they enjoy?
    - otterley 12y ago
      Cleaning toilets isn't productive labor?
      - lmm 12y ago
        Not if they're already cleaned plenty often enough and it's just busy-work, which was what I understood the parent comment to be claiming.
    - ghshephard 12y ago
      Singapore Cleanliness is a huge mental relief after having to deal with the disgusting mess that various parts of San Francisco are. Keeping this city/state clean is incredibly productive. There is a reason why a story regarding hiring cleaning consultants makes the front page news, and people are fined $15,000 for throwing out cigarette butts - singaporeans take cleanliness very, very seriously.
    - 12y ago

plongeur 12y ago

Well, with regards to what "Westeners" nowadays consider civilized - Singapore is lagging behind SF I'd care to argue. Just consider gay rights and expressing affection in public - so in that respect there is rather an anti-correlation between cleanliness of public facilities and cultural development.

ghshephard 12y ago
Public Displays of affection, beyond holding hands, doesn't have any rock solid claim on being "civilized" in my books - so, I'll call that more a question of currently fashionable behavior, much akin to public nudity (the recognizing of which probably has a better claim to being civilized in my books). As far as gay rights, agreed - Singapore is behind the curve on officially recognizing gay marriage. With that said, it's not as though Singapore is actually enforcing any of these laws - Singapore has a pretty active gay community/nightlife: http://blog.happymassage.com/the-gay-bars-guidance-in-singapore/ http://blog.happymassage.com/the-gay-bars-guidance-in-singap...
- seszett 12y ago
  > Public Displays of affection, beyond holding hands, doesn't have any rock solid claim on being "civilized" in my books - so, I'll call that more a question of currently fashionable behavior, much akin to public nudity (the recognizing of which probably has a better claim to being civilized in my books). The civilized definition of being civilized is not to accept things depending on your personal opinion of what is civilized and what is not, but rather to not criminalize things that have no rational reason to be criminalized. Public displays of affection, just like public nudity, gay marriage or chewing gum, are simply not reasonable things to make illegal.

ozmbie 12y ago

Singapore's public restrooms are clean because they can afford to hire armies of 60 year old cleaners with no minimum wage. I'd argue they are actually TOO clean. Because half the time I want to use them, they are being cleaned! It's a bunch of busywork to employee the otherwise unemployable. They clean bathrooms and sweep up leaves over and over again.

rwmj 12y ago
I'm having a hard time understanding what's bad about this. If they are otherwise unemployable, then it's good that they are doing this isn't it?
- lmm 12y ago
  If they're not doing anything actually productive, wouldn't it be better to pay them the money and let them spend the time on something they enjoy?
  - otterley 12y ago
    Cleaning toilets isn't productive labor?
    - lmm 12y ago
      Not if they're already cleaned plenty often enough and it's just busy-work, which was what I understood the parent comment to be claiming.
  - ghshephard 12y ago
    Singapore Cleanliness is a huge mental relief after having to deal with the disgusting mess that various parts of San Francisco are. Keeping this city/state clean is incredibly productive. There is a reason why a story regarding hiring cleaning consultants makes the front page news, and people are fined $15,000 for throwing out cigarette butts - singaporeans take cleanliness very, very seriously.
  - 12y ago