5 ms·

As with many articles about sexism, it's easy to read this and have an immediate, emotional reaction. If you "cringed" like one of the other commenters (and as

by sinak 12y ago

As with many articles about sexism, it's easy to read this and have an immediate, emotional reaction. If you "cringed" like one of the other commenters (and as I did reading some of the points listed), its worth taking a moment to think more carefully about why that emotional response was triggered. Few HN users self-identify as "sexist." Yet reading this post, many of us will have done things that the author identifies as subtly sexist micro-aggressions. If you think that that makes you a sexist, well, you're right. All of us are. Sexism, like racism, is a societal problem, engrained in all of us. To try and shift away from our current sexist norms we need to redefine them, and that means recasting behaviors that many of us currently view as completely unoffensive. Another common reaction is something like "these things aren't important, will never change, and feminists should pick their battles." But that's misguided - you're silencing and dismissing viewpoints that deserve to be heard. Just because a subtle but widespread societal norm isn't likely be fixed in the short term doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed. We certainly have the ability to change own behaviors, and nudge those around us to do the same.

irishcoffee 12y ago
> Sexism, like racism, is a societal problem, engrained in all of us. Are you trying to somehow imply everyone is racist? Are you further implying that everyone is sexist? > ... a right to complain and be heard I'm curious, who (in the US anyways) doesn't have that right. At this point I feel like I can get sued for calling a stop sign red. It's getting a little absurd.
- sinak 12y ago
  > Are you trying to somehow imply everyone is racist? Are you further implying that everyone is sexist? Yes and yes. Much of our context for judging people comes from society, and society is both sexist and racist. Numerous studies have shown that even people who identify as being non-racist will shoot a black person more quickly, dismiss a resume if it contains a black-sounding name, etc: More here: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/28/opinion/nicholas-kristof-is-everyone-a-little-bit-racist.html http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/28/opinion/nicholas-kristof-i... The same applies to sexism. You can Google your way to plenty of similar studies. > I'm curious, who (in the US anyways) doesn't have that right. At this point I feel like I can get sued for calling a stop sign red. It's getting a little absurd. It's true that people (mostly) have the right to free speech in the US. But there are two ways to prevent people from expressing their views: you can literally disallow them from saying something, or you can "silence" them by making them feel uncomfortable for having spoken at all. I'm talking about the latter.
  - cbd1984 12y ago
    If everyone is sexist, than nobody can call anyone else sexist, because nobody is in a position to do so unhypocritically. Ditto racism. > you can "silence" them by making them feel uncomfortable for having spoken at all. I'm talking about the latter. Which is part of what happens when someone is called racist or sexist.
    - EliRivers 12y ago
      If everyone is sexist, than nobody can call anyone else sexist, because nobody is in a position to do so unhypocritically. This is incorrect. There is no requirement to be free of some fault in order to be able identify that fault in others.
      - cbd1984 12y ago
        There is if you expect anyone to take you seriously.
        EliRivers 12y ago
        This is incorrect. For example, a criminal in a court proceeding might give evidence against another criminal, involved in the same crime. It is common for the criminal giving such evidence to be taken seriously.
  - irishcoffee 12y ago
    I didn't ask about society. Everyone, is every single individual racist and/or sexist? > Numerous studies have shown that even people who identify as being non-racist will shoot a black person more quickly, dismiss a resume if it contains a black-sounding name, etc... Did those studies talk to every single person in the US? Or are you only concerned about white people being racist towards black people? That's how you're coming across, just so you know. You can't acknowledge that you think 'everyone' is racist and then pivot back to society. You've just blanket accused every single person of being racist, and sexist. Are black women racist and sexist? Middle-eastern women? Its easy to stand on a soapbox and quote a study. It does not seem as though you've run this line of thinking to its conclusion, you stopped in the middle. > It's true that people (mostly) have the right to free speech in the US. But there are two ways to prevent people from expressing their views: you can literally disallow them from saying something, or you can "silence" them by making them feel uncomfortable for having spoken at all. I'm talking about the latter. Mostly have the right to free speech? Can you elaborate about that? I'm not sure if you're aware of how controversial the issue of 'free speech' has become. [0] Once again, its easy to soapbox and pick the parts you agree with. We must not live in the same US (or perhaps you don't) if you think people are shamed into not talking out against racism and sexism. They're both wrong, and, compared to even 20 years ago, the US is making forward progress, leaps and bounds of forward progress. Then people come along and say things like you did, as if there isn't change. It literally takes generations to wipe out hatred in the manner you're concerned about. Making blanket statements about everyone being a horrible, shitty person on the internet doesn't speed things up, and makes you look silly. [0] http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Freedom+of+Speech http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Freedom+of+Spe...
wyager 12y ago
> its worth taking a moment to think more carefully about why that emotional response was triggered. Because most of the complaints enumerated in the article are tenuous and absurd? > you're silencing and dismissing viewpoints that deserve to be heard. There are many viewpoints that have more argumentative merit, and I have a finite amount of time to read blog posts.

by sinak 12y ago

irishcoffee 12y ago

> Sexism, like racism, is a societal problem, engrained in all of us. Are you trying to somehow imply everyone is racist? Are you further implying that everyone is sexist? > ... a right to complain and be heard I'm curious, who (in the US anyways) doesn't have that right. At this point I feel like I can get sued for calling a stop sign red. It's getting a little absurd.

sinak 12y ago
> Are you trying to somehow imply everyone is racist? Are you further implying that everyone is sexist? Yes and yes. Much of our context for judging people comes from society, and society is both sexist and racist. Numerous studies have shown that even people who identify as being non-racist will shoot a black person more quickly, dismiss a resume if it contains a black-sounding name, etc: More here: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/28/opinion/nicholas-kristof-is-everyone-a-little-bit-racist.html http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/28/opinion/nicholas-kristof-i... The same applies to sexism. You can Google your way to plenty of similar studies. > I'm curious, who (in the US anyways) doesn't have that right. At this point I feel like I can get sued for calling a stop sign red. It's getting a little absurd. It's true that people (mostly) have the right to free speech in the US. But there are two ways to prevent people from expressing their views: you can literally disallow them from saying something, or you can "silence" them by making them feel uncomfortable for having spoken at all. I'm talking about the latter.
- cbd1984 12y ago
  If everyone is sexist, than nobody can call anyone else sexist, because nobody is in a position to do so unhypocritically. Ditto racism. > you can "silence" them by making them feel uncomfortable for having spoken at all. I'm talking about the latter. Which is part of what happens when someone is called racist or sexist.
  - EliRivers 12y ago
    If everyone is sexist, than nobody can call anyone else sexist, because nobody is in a position to do so unhypocritically. This is incorrect. There is no requirement to be free of some fault in order to be able identify that fault in others.
    - cbd1984 12y ago
      There is if you expect anyone to take you seriously.
      - EliRivers 12y ago
        This is incorrect. For example, a criminal in a court proceeding might give evidence against another criminal, involved in the same crime. It is common for the criminal giving such evidence to be taken seriously.
- irishcoffee 12y ago
  I didn't ask about society. Everyone, is every single individual racist and/or sexist? > Numerous studies have shown that even people who identify as being non-racist will shoot a black person more quickly, dismiss a resume if it contains a black-sounding name, etc... Did those studies talk to every single person in the US? Or are you only concerned about white people being racist towards black people? That's how you're coming across, just so you know. You can't acknowledge that you think 'everyone' is racist and then pivot back to society. You've just blanket accused every single person of being racist, and sexist. Are black women racist and sexist? Middle-eastern women? Its easy to stand on a soapbox and quote a study. It does not seem as though you've run this line of thinking to its conclusion, you stopped in the middle. > It's true that people (mostly) have the right to free speech in the US. But there are two ways to prevent people from expressing their views: you can literally disallow them from saying something, or you can "silence" them by making them feel uncomfortable for having spoken at all. I'm talking about the latter. Mostly have the right to free speech? Can you elaborate about that? I'm not sure if you're aware of how controversial the issue of 'free speech' has become. [0] Once again, its easy to soapbox and pick the parts you agree with. We must not live in the same US (or perhaps you don't) if you think people are shamed into not talking out against racism and sexism. They're both wrong, and, compared to even 20 years ago, the US is making forward progress, leaps and bounds of forward progress. Then people come along and say things like you did, as if there isn't change. It literally takes generations to wipe out hatred in the manner you're concerned about. Making blanket statements about everyone being a horrible, shitty person on the internet doesn't speed things up, and makes you look silly. [0] http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Freedom+of+Speech http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Freedom+of+Spe...

wyager 12y ago

> its worth taking a moment to think more carefully about why that emotional response was triggered. Because most of the complaints enumerated in the article are tenuous and absurd? > you're silencing and dismissing viewpoints that deserve to be heard. There are many viewpoints that have more argumentative merit, and I have a finite amount of time to read blog posts.