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Some things I agree with. > 6. Assuming women they meet are in non-technical roles. Yeah, monumentally stupid. I don't even understand the reason for this --

Some things I agree with. > 6. Assuming women they meet are in non-technical roles. Yeah, monumentally stupid. I don't even understand the reason for this -- usually at any event I just straight up ask people what they do. Assuming something is pretty weird. > 7. Fetishizing “hot geek girls”. > 8. Denigrating things by comparing them to women or femininity. Common sense. A desperate man slavering over a "hot geek girl" looks ridiculous, as does a man who talks about "manning up" or "hitting like a girl" in the workplace in 2015. Stop it. -------------------------- Some rebuttals, or at least different perspectives on some of these points. > 1. Using 'guys' to mean people The majority of girls/women in college do this. In fact, anecdotal, but I have seen this used much more often by women outside the tech field. I cannot count the number of times I have heard "So where are you guys going out tonight" amongst an all-female college group. So I don't think men who use this term are being micro-aggressive, unless you count female usage of this term as a "micro-aggression" as well. > 2. "Girls" for "women" Similarly, unless older women are being micro-aggressive when they use this term, I don't see why this is micro-aggressive. One of my biggest surprises was hearing my 50+ female co-worker telling me "I'm a good girl, I pay all my bills on time." > 3. "Mom" as an example of a non-technical user I always use my dad as an example, even though my mom is the more non-technical person. But if "mom" is used way more often, maybe I can go along with this. Still, the suggestion therein to use "cat, non-technical user, Ubuntu user" is pretty silly in my opinion. > 4. Using a default male avatar How do you decide if an avatar is male? Jeans and T-shirts do not a male make in this day and age. I am not quite certain how you would distinguish between a non-gendered and gendered avatar. > 5. Describing software or algorithms as “sexy”, “hot”, etc. According to the author, this creates a "college frat-boy environment". I would argue that outlawing normal adult words like "sexy" and "hot" creates more of an infantilized classroom environment where you are essentially saying "Hey, don't say that bad word in front of the girls, or you'll get punished." Using "sexy" to refer to a well-designed, sleek new website is, in my opinion, perfectly reasonable. > 10. Using dark UI patterns. This is a problem for all users. I don't see why this should disproportionately drive women off. If it is, the solution lies in more privacy education and outreach, not bashing people who write the software.

ilyanep 12y ago
I've never actually heard the term "mom" or "grandma" used in that case. Why not just "non-technical user," "less savvy user," "our average user," etc? I don't understand the point of bringing up the specific example.
- ta82828 12y ago
  People do it because it's shorter and more colorful. Count the syllables in your suggestions.
kaitai 12y ago
The article itself notes that not all of these things are problems to/for all women/people. At some point you have to take that at face value. The writer finds these to be problems. Take it as a point of information. Similarly, your 50+ year old coworker's use of "girls" is a point of information. I find it very weird and creepy when an older female co-worker calls me a "girl" in front of my boss, or says something like "We girls just need to do things a little differently, you know!" Weird and creepy, and no less sexist because it's from a lady. (Apparently women her age, on the other hand, find "lady" somewhat... inappropriate....?) Re: dark UI patterns and more, making things better for women makes things better for all users. Glad you seem to have noticed that. If you don't see why it should disproportionately drive off women, you should read/listen up a bit. For instance, direct messages on Twitter are different experiences for women and men: http://blog.ameliagreenhall.com/post/the-hand-on-the-knee-a-guide-to-twitter-dm-etiquette-for-men http://blog.ameliagreenhall.com/post/the-hand-on-the-knee-a-...
- parennoob 12y ago
  > The article itself notes that not all of these things are problems to/for all women/people...The writer finds these to be problems. Excellent, looks like we all agree. These are specific problems faced by the writer. Then why on earth is the article titled "Ways Men in Tech are Unintentionally Sexist", rather than "Problem I have Faced in Tech and that Made Me Specifically Uncomfortable"? > I find it very weird and creepy when an older female co-worker calls me a "girl" in front of my boss, Yes, and I find it vaguely disquieting that feminists are trying to ban the word "sexy" in the workplace. That doesn't mean I'm going to write a hyperbolic article titled "Why Feminists in Tech are Extreme Puritans". > (Apparently women her age, on the other hand, find "lady" somewhat... inappropriate....?) Haha, one place where we agree totally. I have no idea. My quick guess is, being an older lady, it gives her a comfortable sense of youthfulness to say "Us girls", when she is slowly heading towards 60, and being called "Grandma" at home. But I think it's her choice, and I accept it as such. > making things better for women makes things better for all users. Glad you seem to have noticed that. Nope, I said quite the opposite. All users face these problems. > For instance, direct messages on Twitter are different experiences for women and men: http://blog.ameliagreenhall.com/post/the-hand-on-the-knee http://blog.ameliagreenhall.com/post/the-hand-on-the-knee That post in itself opens a can of hornets, so I'd like not to go too deep into it. Twitter has an option to stop DMs from people you don't follow, and that article does nothing to educate people about that option. Instead, it makes the sexist, ageist, Puritanical statement that "older men DM'ing younger women on Twitter is 'creepy'" with quasi-religious fervour.

ilyanep 12y ago

I've never actually heard the term "mom" or "grandma" used in that case. Why not just "non-technical user," "less savvy user," "our average user," etc? I don't understand the point of bringing up the specific example.

ta82828 12y ago
People do it because it's shorter and more colorful. Count the syllables in your suggestions.

kaitai 12y ago

The article itself notes that not all of these things are problems to/for all women/people. At some point you have to take that at face value. The writer finds these to be problems. Take it as a point of information. Similarly, your 50+ year old coworker's use of "girls" is a point of information. I find it very weird and creepy when an older female co-worker calls me a "girl" in front of my boss, or says something like "We girls just need to do things a little differently, you know!" Weird and creepy, and no less sexist because it's from a lady. (Apparently women her age, on the other hand, find "lady" somewhat... inappropriate....?) Re: dark UI patterns and more, making things better for women makes things better for all users. Glad you seem to have noticed that. If you don't see why it should disproportionately drive off women, you should read/listen up a bit. For instance, direct messages on Twitter are different experiences for women and men: http://blog.ameliagreenhall.com/post/the-hand-on-the-knee-a-guide-to-twitter-dm-etiquette-for-men http://blog.ameliagreenhall.com/post/the-hand-on-the-knee-a-...

parennoob 12y ago
> The article itself notes that not all of these things are problems to/for all women/people...The writer finds these to be problems. Excellent, looks like we all agree. These are specific problems faced by the writer. Then why on earth is the article titled "Ways Men in Tech are Unintentionally Sexist", rather than "Problem I have Faced in Tech and that Made Me Specifically Uncomfortable"? > I find it very weird and creepy when an older female co-worker calls me a "girl" in front of my boss, Yes, and I find it vaguely disquieting that feminists are trying to ban the word "sexy" in the workplace. That doesn't mean I'm going to write a hyperbolic article titled "Why Feminists in Tech are Extreme Puritans". > (Apparently women her age, on the other hand, find "lady" somewhat... inappropriate....?) Haha, one place where we agree totally. I have no idea. My quick guess is, being an older lady, it gives her a comfortable sense of youthfulness to say "Us girls", when she is slowly heading towards 60, and being called "Grandma" at home. But I think it's her choice, and I accept it as such. > making things better for women makes things better for all users. Glad you seem to have noticed that. Nope, I said quite the opposite. All users face these problems. > For instance, direct messages on Twitter are different experiences for women and men: http://blog.ameliagreenhall.com/post/the-hand-on-the-knee http://blog.ameliagreenhall.com/post/the-hand-on-the-knee That post in itself opens a can of hornets, so I'd like not to go too deep into it. Twitter has an option to stop DMs from people you don't follow, and that article does nothing to educate people about that option. Instead, it makes the sexist, ageist, Puritanical statement that "older men DM'ing younger women on Twitter is 'creepy'" with quasi-religious fervour.