7 ms·

Your pain reliever may also be diminishing your joy

58 points by hydrogen18 12y ago

Florin_Andrei 12y ago
At this point we'd have to make sure if any part of this effect is permanent, or whether it all disappears when the drug is metabolized.
- hydrogen18 12y ago
  Well, if it is permanent there would be no difference in the placebo group. Anyone who isn't allergic to acetaminophen and live in the west has taking at least a 500mg dose in their lifetime. Even if you consciously tried to avoid it, there is a good chance you were administered it before or after surgery.
  - Florin_Andrei 12y ago
    That's a pretty scary thought.
    - hydrogen18 12y ago
      Why? Acetaminophen makes you act differently. Big deal. It isn't as if we're all being administered drugs like in Equilibrium.
sgift 12y ago
Pain also dimishes my joy. Pain relievers are shit, but pain is far worse.
jstanley 12y ago
For those outside the US, it seems acetaminophen is the same as paracetamol.
- robin_reala 12y ago
  It’s paracetamol in the UK too.
wz1000 12y ago
> So the researchers did a second study in which they had 85 people view the same photos and make the same judgments of evaluation and emotional reactions as in the prior study. > Once again, individuals who took acetaminophen (compared to placebo) had evaluations and emotional reactions to both negative and positive photographs that were significantly blunted. Couldn't a possible explanation for this be that the "judging" was already done the first time(under the effects of paracetamol) and the brain simply reuses the "cached" judgment?
- rosser 12y ago
  I think you're misreading the study design. 85 people viewed the same photos, some of whom had taken acetaminophen, and some of whom hadn't. The researchers then compared the emotional intensity experienced by the two groups (and, in the specific study about which you're quoting, the participants' experience of the color blue).
- DontGiveTwoFlux 12y ago
  > Compared to placebo.
learc83 12y ago
I remember reading a while back that acetaminophen can dull existential dread. http://healthland.time.com/2013/04/19/tylenol-fights-fear-of-the-abyss/ http://healthland.time.com/2013/04/19/tylenol-fights-fear-of...
kranner 12y ago
I have to bring this up in case someone decides to self-experiment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracetamol_toxicity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracetamol_toxicity TL;DR: Don't take more than 3 grams a day.
- InclinedPlane 12y ago
  Also, take care to notice how many other medicines have acetaminophen/paracetamol. If you take tylenol for pain and also take cough syrup then you could be doubling up on paracetamol. If you take too much of each, which is common, and maybe take the 2nd dose a little too soon after the 1st, and maybe if you have a habit of chronic drinking you could easily get yourself into severe trouble without even knowing it.
  - kranner 12y ago
    Agreed, that's why it's better to get paracetamol-free variants of medicines if available. Also, caffeine makes paracetamol more effective for pain relief. There are pills available with paracetamol + 50mg caffeine (or just take two cups of coffee); this may be more effective than doubling up on the paracetamol.
    - MichaelGG 12y ago
      Unfortunately, the DEA and US public like to poison people with APAP to reduce the perceived danger from opiates. Someone, literally, decided that if you add APAP to hydrocodone then it can be under a lesser restriction (Schedule III). Not to mention the doctors that go along with this wickedness and are very hesitant to prescribe opiates without APAP. And just look at the outrage a year or two back when Zohydro was announced. All they did was remove APAP from hydrocodone tablets, but it was spun as creating super power heroin for everyone.
      - kranner 12y ago
        I was going to argue that combining paracetamol (APAP) with opiates might make them more effective for pain relief, but then I found this, which points to the opposite (i.e., adding APAP may not increase pain relief): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17965980 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17965980 I didn't read the paper, only the abstract.
tsaoutourpants 12y ago
Clearly they're using the wrong pain reliever. ;)
Qantourisc 12y ago
I often wonder if there is a way to fix the dislike/uncomforted of pain without removing it. Rather then bombarding your body to inhibit this feeling.
- pygy_ 12y ago
  Meditation practitioners manage to dissociate the experience of pain from the emotional response that usually comes with it (with fMRI at least one (edit: two) fMRI study that shows the dissociation as well, in that areas associated with the emotional processing of pain are less turned on by painful stimuli, while the rest of the pain detection areas light up normally). http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304395910006147 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304395910... http://www.jneurosci.org/content/31/14/5540.short http://www.jneurosci.org/content/31/14/5540.short
- kranner 12y ago
  Meditation is supposed to be able to achieve this. I've experienced it exactly once in a 45-minute session and it only lasted a few minutes. At the time my elbow was hurting quite a bit (I have hemophilia and arthritic damage from frequent bleeds); for that brief duration, I continued to experience the pain but it was akin to observing that an object is a particular colour, rather than suffering personally.
  - geomark 12y ago
    Achieving the desired mental states of meditation is hard for most people. We're so used to constantly moving about with our minds flitting from one thing to another Meditation is precisely the opposite of that. But if you do there are many great benefits, including reducing the suffering of physical pain. Like you said, you can reach a mental state where you just observe the physical pain - you know it is there but you don't suffer from it. Disclaimer: I was a Buddhist monk for a while. I meditated a lot.
    - kranner 12y ago
      While the state lasted, it was extremely interesting. It's one thing to read about it, and another to experience it. It's the simplicity that was so surprising. At the time I almost laughed when I remembered how I would normally react to what was just a painful joint. That's when I lost my grip, so to speak, and went back to feeling ow, ow, ow.
neolefty 12y ago
Anecdotally, I notice something similar with Naproxen -- it's great for diminished pain from aches and pains, but it also seems to make life less exciting.

58 points by hydrogen18 12y ago

At this point we'd have to make sure if any part of this effect is permanent, or whether it all disappears when the drug is metabolized.

hydrogen18 12y ago
Well, if it is permanent there would be no difference in the placebo group. Anyone who isn't allergic to acetaminophen and live in the west has taking at least a 500mg dose in their lifetime. Even if you consciously tried to avoid it, there is a good chance you were administered it before or after surgery.
- Florin_Andrei 12y ago
  That's a pretty scary thought.
  - hydrogen18 12y ago
    Why? Acetaminophen makes you act differently. Big deal. It isn't as if we're all being administered drugs like in Equilibrium.

sgift 12y ago

Pain also dimishes my joy. Pain relievers are shit, but pain is far worse.

jstanley 12y ago

For those outside the US, it seems acetaminophen is the same as paracetamol.

robin_reala 12y ago
It’s paracetamol in the UK too.

wz1000 12y ago

> So the researchers did a second study in which they had 85 people view the same photos and make the same judgments of evaluation and emotional reactions as in the prior study. > Once again, individuals who took acetaminophen (compared to placebo) had evaluations and emotional reactions to both negative and positive photographs that were significantly blunted. Couldn't a possible explanation for this be that the "judging" was already done the first time(under the effects of paracetamol) and the brain simply reuses the "cached" judgment?

rosser 12y ago
I think you're misreading the study design. 85 people viewed the same photos, some of whom had taken acetaminophen, and some of whom hadn't. The researchers then compared the emotional intensity experienced by the two groups (and, in the specific study about which you're quoting, the participants' experience of the color blue).
DontGiveTwoFlux 12y ago
> Compared to placebo.

learc83 12y ago

I remember reading a while back that acetaminophen can dull existential dread. http://healthland.time.com/2013/04/19/tylenol-fights-fear-of-the-abyss/ http://healthland.time.com/2013/04/19/tylenol-fights-fear-of...

kranner 12y ago

I have to bring this up in case someone decides to self-experiment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracetamol_toxicity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracetamol_toxicity TL;DR: Don't take more than 3 grams a day.

InclinedPlane 12y ago
Also, take care to notice how many other medicines have acetaminophen/paracetamol. If you take tylenol for pain and also take cough syrup then you could be doubling up on paracetamol. If you take too much of each, which is common, and maybe take the 2nd dose a little too soon after the 1st, and maybe if you have a habit of chronic drinking you could easily get yourself into severe trouble without even knowing it.
- kranner 12y ago
  Agreed, that's why it's better to get paracetamol-free variants of medicines if available. Also, caffeine makes paracetamol more effective for pain relief. There are pills available with paracetamol + 50mg caffeine (or just take two cups of coffee); this may be more effective than doubling up on the paracetamol.
  - MichaelGG 12y ago
    Unfortunately, the DEA and US public like to poison people with APAP to reduce the perceived danger from opiates. Someone, literally, decided that if you add APAP to hydrocodone then it can be under a lesser restriction (Schedule III). Not to mention the doctors that go along with this wickedness and are very hesitant to prescribe opiates without APAP. And just look at the outrage a year or two back when Zohydro was announced. All they did was remove APAP from hydrocodone tablets, but it was spun as creating super power heroin for everyone.
    - kranner 12y ago
      I was going to argue that combining paracetamol (APAP) with opiates might make them more effective for pain relief, but then I found this, which points to the opposite (i.e., adding APAP may not increase pain relief): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17965980 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17965980 I didn't read the paper, only the abstract.

tsaoutourpants 12y ago

Clearly they're using the wrong pain reliever. ;)

Qantourisc 12y ago

I often wonder if there is a way to fix the dislike/uncomforted of pain without removing it. Rather then bombarding your body to inhibit this feeling.

pygy_ 12y ago
Meditation practitioners manage to dissociate the experience of pain from the emotional response that usually comes with it (with fMRI at least one (edit: two) fMRI study that shows the dissociation as well, in that areas associated with the emotional processing of pain are less turned on by painful stimuli, while the rest of the pain detection areas light up normally). http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304395910006147 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304395910... http://www.jneurosci.org/content/31/14/5540.short http://www.jneurosci.org/content/31/14/5540.short
kranner 12y ago
Meditation is supposed to be able to achieve this. I've experienced it exactly once in a 45-minute session and it only lasted a few minutes. At the time my elbow was hurting quite a bit (I have hemophilia and arthritic damage from frequent bleeds); for that brief duration, I continued to experience the pain but it was akin to observing that an object is a particular colour, rather than suffering personally.
- geomark 12y ago
  Achieving the desired mental states of meditation is hard for most people. We're so used to constantly moving about with our minds flitting from one thing to another Meditation is precisely the opposite of that. But if you do there are many great benefits, including reducing the suffering of physical pain. Like you said, you can reach a mental state where you just observe the physical pain - you know it is there but you don't suffer from it. Disclaimer: I was a Buddhist monk for a while. I meditated a lot.
  - kranner 12y ago
    While the state lasted, it was extremely interesting. It's one thing to read about it, and another to experience it. It's the simplicity that was so surprising. At the time I almost laughed when I remembered how I would normally react to what was just a painful joint. That's when I lost my grip, so to speak, and went back to feeling ow, ow, ow.

neolefty 12y ago

Anecdotally, I notice something similar with Naproxen -- it's great for diminished pain from aches and pains, but it also seems to make life less exciting.