5 ms·

Tableflip.club

45 points by cedricr 11y ago

christopherslee 11y ago
not trying to discount this or my perceived intent of it, but i was wondering if any women could share specific examples when they were being mentored/coached differently than men. i understand that every individual, man or woman, responds to better to different communication styles. i'm asking because i specifically want to know what unintended biases/habits I may have that i didn't realize. thanks!
- Frondo 11y ago
  Do you know any women in tech at all? They would be the people to ask.
  - runamok 11y ago
    Except something I read recently said you should not do that either unless they somehow give signs that is something they are interested in. At this point I have just given up. I did ask a woman colleague about this a while ago before I was admonished (via random blog post) and she said she didn't really see the need to tell other women to pursue CS as a profession because those that were interested would gravitate to it like she had. She worries about people doing things just because they pay well or are seen as trendy. Not sure I agree with her viewpoint but there you go...
- tanglisha 11y ago
  Do a web search for unconscious bias. Google has been doing a bunch of research on this lately.
yuvadam 11y ago
This is trending all day now, and seems to be getting killed on HN. Curious why mods feel the need to do that.
- beering 11y ago
  Just glancing through the content, it has a much greater than normal chance of getting flagged by readers. So all those flags could be killing it. Edit: I am not certain this is how HN actually works, so it's just a guess.
  - yuvadam 11y ago
    Could be. Either way, kind of proves the point.
- bshimmin 11y ago
  Perhaps because, beyond a Twitter hashtag and a fairly inexplicable emoticon, it doesn't add anything new or interesting to (what usually amounts to) a rather prickly debate.
  - notacoward 11y ago
    Agreed. Somebody's mad, perhaps justifiably so, but there's no clear plan of action here. I'm not saying it's a bad plan. I'm saying it's no plan, and thus nothing to discuss. Maybe when more details come out about what the tableflippers are actually going to do, that will be newsworthy.
    - yuvadam 11y ago
      Or maybe the onus should be on the male crowd to take action?
      - notacoward 11y ago
        Perhaps it should, but every bit of ally advice I've seen is that they should not try to define what that action should be. That's taking leadership away from the women themselves - "white knight" behavior of the worst sort. I'm not saying everyone feels that way, and in fact I have misgivings about it myself, but that seems to be the prevailing view. Instead of trying to guess what women you don't even know need or want, let them explain it to you. I don't get the impression that whoever wrote the OP is shy. If there's a plan, we'll hear about it and then we (men) can perhaps help to implement it ... or not, depending on what that plan is. I very much doubt this was meant as an opportunity for men to fill in the blanks.
spb 11y ago
This isn't material to the actual content of the post, but: > Uber for cats Isn't Uber the Uber for cats? http://blog.uber.com/KITTENS http://blog.uber.com/KITTENS
jkrejci 11y ago
"We’re ceasing to give any more fucks about your incompetently-run “Uber for cats” app or whatever the fuck your company does." > You rule.
benwerd 11y ago
I think this is really important. It would be very wrong to dismiss it with tone policing or other superficial commentary. The underlying point is that there are a lot of women in the technology industry who believe - rightly - that they are being mistreated. That's not necessarily to say that the rest of us are doing it deliberately (although some undoubtedly are). But it's important to grow our own awareness and build more inclusive cultures at our startups, and continue to be aware, work on improving ourselves, and, more than anything else, listen. I'm down with Uber for cats though. Maybe with VR and drones?
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    > It's not proposing anything other than taking your ball and leaving, which just makes it worse for the women who choose to stay. I don't see how it makes thing worse for the women who choose to stay in existing environments. If the strategy of setting up organizations on the model proposed works, how concretely will it make things worse for women who choose to remain in other firms? > Awareness is important, but this is an unproductive way to spread it. I don't think this is an effort to spread awareness. I think this is an expression that spreading awareness has, from its author's (or authors') perspective, been done but that awareness hasn't translated into adequate improvements in substantive conditions, and that the way to improve substantive conditions is to build organizations that from day one lack the features that have produced the bad conditions that awareness has failed to cure.
    - benwerd 11y ago
      I think that's more than fair, and I don't understand why anyone would have any problem with building better organizations. The response to "women are having a shitty time in the tech industry" should be "let's fix this and its root causes, because it will make our companies better," not a lot of the sexist knee-jerk reactions we've seen.
rabbyte 11y ago
Lots of anger, name calling, blaming, and posturing directed at nobody in particular with no discernible next steps toward resolution. Nothing good will come from this. There's no need to wage war, pick out enemies, and blast people toward a more fair world. If you try to pick a fight you'll get one because that's definitely something we can all do well.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > with no discernible next steps toward resolution. The next steps (expressed as fact statements rather than calls to action) are quite explicit in the last paragraph. > There's no need to wage war, pick out enemies, and blast people toward a more fair world. I don't see any war-waging, just an explanation for the motivations for a well-identified new strategy.
  - rabbyte 11y ago
    Quite explicit? Let me see if I can recount those steps then: follow brave women, talk, organize, share stories about creeps and cowards, incorporate, fundraise, invest, and stop giving fucks. Great plan maybe if we have time we can include memes.
- Frondo 11y ago
  I'd guess that, in reply to your statement "if you try to pick a fight...", a woman in tech might reasonably reply, the fight started years ago, women are just now starting to stand up for themselves.
  - rabbyte 11y ago
    And to the extent that such a statement is used to empower people to take action, I support it. Still, imho, it's not helpful to further entrench the gender binary with a narrative about men keeping women from their potential and women having to fend for themselves to get what their due.
    - 11y ago
eonw 11y ago
feminist ranting is so 2015? the grass is always greener on the other side of fence. everyone believes everyone else must have it easier.

45 points by cedricr 11y ago

not trying to discount this or my perceived intent of it, but i was wondering if any women could share specific examples when they were being mentored/coached differently than men. i understand that every individual, man or woman, responds to better to different communication styles. i'm asking because i specifically want to know what unintended biases/habits I may have that i didn't realize. thanks!

Frondo 11y ago
Do you know any women in tech at all? They would be the people to ask.
- runamok 11y ago
  Except something I read recently said you should not do that either unless they somehow give signs that is something they are interested in. At this point I have just given up. I did ask a woman colleague about this a while ago before I was admonished (via random blog post) and she said she didn't really see the need to tell other women to pursue CS as a profession because those that were interested would gravitate to it like she had. She worries about people doing things just because they pay well or are seen as trendy. Not sure I agree with her viewpoint but there you go...
tanglisha 11y ago
Do a web search for unconscious bias. Google has been doing a bunch of research on this lately.

yuvadam 11y ago

This is trending all day now, and seems to be getting killed on HN. Curious why mods feel the need to do that.

beering 11y ago
Just glancing through the content, it has a much greater than normal chance of getting flagged by readers. So all those flags could be killing it. Edit: I am not certain this is how HN actually works, so it's just a guess.
- yuvadam 11y ago
  Could be. Either way, kind of proves the point.
bshimmin 11y ago
Perhaps because, beyond a Twitter hashtag and a fairly inexplicable emoticon, it doesn't add anything new or interesting to (what usually amounts to) a rather prickly debate.
- notacoward 11y ago
  Agreed. Somebody's mad, perhaps justifiably so, but there's no clear plan of action here. I'm not saying it's a bad plan. I'm saying it's no plan, and thus nothing to discuss. Maybe when more details come out about what the tableflippers are actually going to do, that will be newsworthy.
  - yuvadam 11y ago
    Or maybe the onus should be on the male crowd to take action?
    - notacoward 11y ago
      Perhaps it should, but every bit of ally advice I've seen is that they should not try to define what that action should be. That's taking leadership away from the women themselves - "white knight" behavior of the worst sort. I'm not saying everyone feels that way, and in fact I have misgivings about it myself, but that seems to be the prevailing view. Instead of trying to guess what women you don't even know need or want, let them explain it to you. I don't get the impression that whoever wrote the OP is shy. If there's a plan, we'll hear about it and then we (men) can perhaps help to implement it ... or not, depending on what that plan is. I very much doubt this was meant as an opportunity for men to fill in the blanks.

spb 11y ago

This isn't material to the actual content of the post, but: > Uber for cats Isn't Uber the Uber for cats? http://blog.uber.com/KITTENS http://blog.uber.com/KITTENS

jkrejci 11y ago

"We’re ceasing to give any more fucks about your incompetently-run “Uber for cats” app or whatever the fuck your company does." > You rule.

benwerd 11y ago

I think this is really important. It would be very wrong to dismiss it with tone policing or other superficial commentary. The underlying point is that there are a lot of women in the technology industry who believe - rightly - that they are being mistreated. That's not necessarily to say that the rest of us are doing it deliberately (although some undoubtedly are). But it's important to grow our own awareness and build more inclusive cultures at our startups, and continue to be aware, work on improving ourselves, and, more than anything else, listen. I'm down with Uber for cats though. Maybe with VR and drones?

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > It's not proposing anything other than taking your ball and leaving, which just makes it worse for the women who choose to stay. I don't see how it makes thing worse for the women who choose to stay in existing environments. If the strategy of setting up organizations on the model proposed works, how concretely will it make things worse for women who choose to remain in other firms? > Awareness is important, but this is an unproductive way to spread it. I don't think this is an effort to spread awareness. I think this is an expression that spreading awareness has, from its author's (or authors') perspective, been done but that awareness hasn't translated into adequate improvements in substantive conditions, and that the way to improve substantive conditions is to build organizations that from day one lack the features that have produced the bad conditions that awareness has failed to cure.
  - benwerd 11y ago
    I think that's more than fair, and I don't understand why anyone would have any problem with building better organizations. The response to "women are having a shitty time in the tech industry" should be "let's fix this and its root causes, because it will make our companies better," not a lot of the sexist knee-jerk reactions we've seen.

rabbyte 11y ago

Lots of anger, name calling, blaming, and posturing directed at nobody in particular with no discernible next steps toward resolution. Nothing good will come from this. There's no need to wage war, pick out enemies, and blast people toward a more fair world. If you try to pick a fight you'll get one because that's definitely something we can all do well.

dragonwriter 11y ago
> with no discernible next steps toward resolution. The next steps (expressed as fact statements rather than calls to action) are quite explicit in the last paragraph. > There's no need to wage war, pick out enemies, and blast people toward a more fair world. I don't see any war-waging, just an explanation for the motivations for a well-identified new strategy.
- rabbyte 11y ago
  Quite explicit? Let me see if I can recount those steps then: follow brave women, talk, organize, share stories about creeps and cowards, incorporate, fundraise, invest, and stop giving fucks. Great plan maybe if we have time we can include memes.
Frondo 11y ago
I'd guess that, in reply to your statement "if you try to pick a fight...", a woman in tech might reasonably reply, the fight started years ago, women are just now starting to stand up for themselves.
- rabbyte 11y ago
  And to the extent that such a statement is used to empower people to take action, I support it. Still, imho, it's not helpful to further entrench the gender binary with a narrative about men keeping women from their potential and women having to fend for themselves to get what their due.
  - 11y ago

eonw 11y ago

feminist ranting is so 2015? the grass is always greener on the other side of fence. everyone believes everyone else must have it easier.