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Renowned German author Günter Grass dies, aged 87

8 points by antr 12y ago

V-2 12y ago
He was deemed a hypocrite not because he volunteered to join the SS (as a teenager), but because he didn't disclose it for decades - while playing the role of a public "voice of conscience" for most of that time. And even though he came clean so much later on, some parts of his confession are still very difficult to believe - for instance, he says he volunteered for submarines first. Submarines! Worst mortality rate in the entire army, and in late 1944? Suicidal, even worse than the Eastern Front (where nobody volunteered to go... and yes, even back then it was common knowledge).
- coldtea 12y ago
  The problem is a human is multi-faceted. He could be a hypocrite in doing that about his past, and still much less of a hypocrite than those that accused him in tons of other issues. >Submarines! Worst mortality rate in the entire army, and in late 1944? Suicidal, even worse than the Eastern Front (where nobody volunteered to go... and yes, even back then it was common knowledge). Errr, don't know about him and wether he knew that or not, but in any case there were very passionate for the "cause" men in Germany, who very much volunteered to go to the worst places... And believing in Hitler during the war wasn't that exceptional, neither meant you were evil in your mind. It was pretty much what everybody did...
  - yitchelle 12y ago
    brainwashing is a very powerful tool.
    - V-2 12y ago
      But he explicitly explained that he wasn't brainwashed, only rebelling.
  - V-2 12y ago
    Errr, don't know about him and wether he knew that or not, but in any case there were very passionate for the "cause" men in Germany, who very much volunteered to go to the worst places... It's not impossible in general, especially for someone very young - but this is not what Grass said happened. He says he never was a committed nazi, and only wanted to get away "from constrictions, from the family" etc. If these were his motivations, however, it is very difficult to understand why he would volunteer for submarines as his first choice. And this move is an important part of his "alibi", because he maintained that he volunteered for the U-Boot fleet first, and got drafted into Waffen SS instead. And believing in Hitler during the war wasn't that exceptional, neither meant you were evil in your mind. It was pretty much what everybody did... Well, not everyone wanted to join the SS, and by 1944 it was common knowledge that what these folks do isn't handing out candies... Wanting to be a part of that doesn't mean someone is evil in the sense of having evil imprinted in their DNA, but in the sense of making an evil moral choice - of course.
    - coldtea 12y ago
      >Well, not everyone wanted to join the SS, and by 1944 it was common knowledge that what these folks do isn't handing out candies... It's not about knowing they kill people and such. It's about believing that the cause justifies it, which most of them did, and even that they have a duty to do it, etc. Modern soldiers do evil too -- but they think it's ok, because they bring "democracy" to those places they go (and other similar BS people are told). >but in the sense of making an evil moral choice - of course. The problem is that you might not know you're making an "evil moral choice", but just a choice that you (and everybody around you) feels is justified. People actually making an "evil moral choice" are not that many -- aside from Hollywood evil masterminds. People chosing evil and believing it's the moral thing to do are lots.
      - V-2 12y ago
        > It's not about knowing they kill people and such. It's about believing that the cause justifies it, which most of them did So you're only evil if you don't believe in an evil cause? :) Plus, joining Waffen SS wasn't just about "killing" - this could be said about Wehrmacht. The SS (I mean proper SS, not the foreign SS units that were formed under auspices of the SS because only citizens of the Third Reich were legible to join the army) were, by and large, death squads. They specialized in mass killings of civilians and other atrocities, and it's not a coincidence that Waffen-SS was later - during the Nuremberg Trials - considered a criminal organization, while the regular army wasn't. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obersalzberg_Speech#/media/File:Hitler_Armenian_Quote.JPG http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obersalzberg_Speech#/media/File... There is a reason why their symbol was a death's head (Totenkopf). The purpose of these troops was explicit. That's why you can't really compare it with modern soldiers that invade Iraq or whatever (I'm not saying that all such invasions are justified or that no atrocities are ever committed). > People actually making an "evil moral choice" are not that many -- aside from Hollywood evil masterminds. By your definition - quite so, and this is exactly why I feel that this definition of an evil moral choice is nothing but moral relativism, or even nihilism in thin disguise, and ethically useless.
  - V-2 12y ago
    He could be a hypocrite in doing that about his past, and still much less of a hypocrite than those that accused him in tons of other issues. Good ol' argument known as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism :) Those who accused of him of this or that usually didn't aspire to the same status as him (voice of conscience in society). Criticizing Grass is a different discipline than criticizing entire nations, especially in this holier-than-thou tone.
guard-of-terra 12y ago
"The Tin Drum" is really something - if you want what war-age Germany looked like without boring yourself. It's both informative and imagination-inducing.

8 points by antr 12y ago

V-2 12y ago

He was deemed a hypocrite not because he volunteered to join the SS (as a teenager), but because he didn't disclose it for decades - while playing the role of a public "voice of conscience" for most of that time. And even though he came clean so much later on, some parts of his confession are still very difficult to believe - for instance, he says he volunteered for submarines first. Submarines! Worst mortality rate in the entire army, and in late 1944? Suicidal, even worse than the Eastern Front (where nobody volunteered to go... and yes, even back then it was common knowledge).

coldtea 12y ago
The problem is a human is multi-faceted. He could be a hypocrite in doing that about his past, and still much less of a hypocrite than those that accused him in tons of other issues. >Submarines! Worst mortality rate in the entire army, and in late 1944? Suicidal, even worse than the Eastern Front (where nobody volunteered to go... and yes, even back then it was common knowledge). Errr, don't know about him and wether he knew that or not, but in any case there were very passionate for the "cause" men in Germany, who very much volunteered to go to the worst places... And believing in Hitler during the war wasn't that exceptional, neither meant you were evil in your mind. It was pretty much what everybody did...
- yitchelle 12y ago
  brainwashing is a very powerful tool.
  - V-2 12y ago
    But he explicitly explained that he wasn't brainwashed, only rebelling.
- V-2 12y ago
  Errr, don't know about him and wether he knew that or not, but in any case there were very passionate for the "cause" men in Germany, who very much volunteered to go to the worst places... It's not impossible in general, especially for someone very young - but this is not what Grass said happened. He says he never was a committed nazi, and only wanted to get away "from constrictions, from the family" etc. If these were his motivations, however, it is very difficult to understand why he would volunteer for submarines as his first choice. And this move is an important part of his "alibi", because he maintained that he volunteered for the U-Boot fleet first, and got drafted into Waffen SS instead. And believing in Hitler during the war wasn't that exceptional, neither meant you were evil in your mind. It was pretty much what everybody did... Well, not everyone wanted to join the SS, and by 1944 it was common knowledge that what these folks do isn't handing out candies... Wanting to be a part of that doesn't mean someone is evil in the sense of having evil imprinted in their DNA, but in the sense of making an evil moral choice - of course.
  - coldtea 12y ago
    >Well, not everyone wanted to join the SS, and by 1944 it was common knowledge that what these folks do isn't handing out candies... It's not about knowing they kill people and such. It's about believing that the cause justifies it, which most of them did, and even that they have a duty to do it, etc. Modern soldiers do evil too -- but they think it's ok, because they bring "democracy" to those places they go (and other similar BS people are told). >but in the sense of making an evil moral choice - of course. The problem is that you might not know you're making an "evil moral choice", but just a choice that you (and everybody around you) feels is justified. People actually making an "evil moral choice" are not that many -- aside from Hollywood evil masterminds. People chosing evil and believing it's the moral thing to do are lots.
    - V-2 12y ago
      > It's not about knowing they kill people and such. It's about believing that the cause justifies it, which most of them did So you're only evil if you don't believe in an evil cause? :) Plus, joining Waffen SS wasn't just about "killing" - this could be said about Wehrmacht. The SS (I mean proper SS, not the foreign SS units that were formed under auspices of the SS because only citizens of the Third Reich were legible to join the army) were, by and large, death squads. They specialized in mass killings of civilians and other atrocities, and it's not a coincidence that Waffen-SS was later - during the Nuremberg Trials - considered a criminal organization, while the regular army wasn't. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obersalzberg_Speech#/media/File:Hitler_Armenian_Quote.JPG http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obersalzberg_Speech#/media/File... There is a reason why their symbol was a death's head (Totenkopf). The purpose of these troops was explicit. That's why you can't really compare it with modern soldiers that invade Iraq or whatever (I'm not saying that all such invasions are justified or that no atrocities are ever committed). > People actually making an "evil moral choice" are not that many -- aside from Hollywood evil masterminds. By your definition - quite so, and this is exactly why I feel that this definition of an evil moral choice is nothing but moral relativism, or even nihilism in thin disguise, and ethically useless.
- V-2 12y ago
  He could be a hypocrite in doing that about his past, and still much less of a hypocrite than those that accused him in tons of other issues. Good ol' argument known as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism :) Those who accused of him of this or that usually didn't aspire to the same status as him (voice of conscience in society). Criticizing Grass is a different discipline than criticizing entire nations, especially in this holier-than-thou tone.

guard-of-terra 12y ago

"The Tin Drum" is really something - if you want what war-age Germany looked like without boring yourself. It's both informative and imagination-inducing.