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So you are not an intentionalist? I'm not equiped to argue this authoratively, but from what i gather the words taken literally are out of character, so are at

by lsd5you 17y ago

So you are not an intentionalist? I'm not equiped to argue this authoratively, but from what i gather the words taken literally are out of character, so are at least disingenious at some level. Unless he really believed in the message, how can such a strident message be anything but ironic,satirical or hollow.

telemachos 17y ago
I'm an intentionalist about meaning, but I'm not sure that's the right question. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean or what you're asking. Horace's personal character is hard to know. The character of the speaker in his Odes, however, is that of an older, world-weary man, somewhat cynical about love, philosophy and politics. But this same persona acknowledges frequently that he owes his life of leisure to Maecenas and Augustus, and he makes his living (the character and the real man in this case) as a court poet. As a younger man, Horace fought on the (so-called) Republican side with the army of Brutus and Cassius. Like many of the young men who were in that army and lived, he returned to Rome and was not penalized or pursued by Octavian (later Augustus). Octavian as a young man could be brutal to his enemies, but in this case he wasn't. The Odes are filled with many sub-types of poems, but two basic types: lyric poems, praising the life of leisure and ease that the speaker enjoys (explicitly because of the gifts of Maecenas and Augustus) and poems explicitly praising Maecenas, Augustus and various political allies and generals under Augustus. The books are explicitly dedicated to Maecenas, who has been described as Octavian/Augustus's minister of propaganda. They are formally examples of poetry of praise: praise of Augustus, his reign and Rome. So, the words dulce et decorum are arguably not in character in the sense that the speaker (an older man, far past the point of joining any army) can't live up to them, but they are entirely in character with the tone, spirit and content of the first three books of Odes. (If anything the 4th book of Odes, written much later, is even more fawningly propagandistic.) By the way, it sounds like you are going on what you've heard/read from others, and there's nothing wrong with that. But I would urge you to read that whole poem and even better Odes III, 1-6, to get a sense of their tone. There's simply nothing in III, 2 to suggest irony or satire.
- lsd5you 17y ago
  Thanks, that is educational. You are right, at this level of discussion I only have 2nd opinions ... Yet seemingly there are academics that disagree with you, in plain english - http://www.jstor.org/pss/3291643 http://www.jstor.org/pss/3291643. It does raise the question about how well we can know what people meant and felt 2000yrs ago, particularly in this case given the political context.

by lsd5you 17y ago

telemachos 17y ago

I'm an intentionalist about meaning, but I'm not sure that's the right question. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean or what you're asking. Horace's personal character is hard to know. The character of the speaker in his Odes, however, is that of an older, world-weary man, somewhat cynical about love, philosophy and politics. But this same persona acknowledges frequently that he owes his life of leisure to Maecenas and Augustus, and he makes his living (the character and the real man in this case) as a court poet. As a younger man, Horace fought on the (so-called) Republican side with the army of Brutus and Cassius. Like many of the young men who were in that army and lived, he returned to Rome and was not penalized or pursued by Octavian (later Augustus). Octavian as a young man could be brutal to his enemies, but in this case he wasn't. The Odes are filled with many sub-types of poems, but two basic types: lyric poems, praising the life of leisure and ease that the speaker enjoys (explicitly because of the gifts of Maecenas and Augustus) and poems explicitly praising Maecenas, Augustus and various political allies and generals under Augustus. The books are explicitly dedicated to Maecenas, who has been described as Octavian/Augustus's minister of propaganda. They are formally examples of poetry of praise: praise of Augustus, his reign and Rome. So, the words dulce et decorum are arguably not in character in the sense that the speaker (an older man, far past the point of joining any army) can't live up to them, but they are entirely in character with the tone, spirit and content of the first three books of Odes. (If anything the 4th book of Odes, written much later, is even more fawningly propagandistic.) By the way, it sounds like you are going on what you've heard/read from others, and there's nothing wrong with that. But I would urge you to read that whole poem and even better Odes III, 1-6, to get a sense of their tone. There's simply nothing in III, 2 to suggest irony or satire.

lsd5you 17y ago
Thanks, that is educational. You are right, at this level of discussion I only have 2nd opinions ... Yet seemingly there are academics that disagree with you, in plain english - http://www.jstor.org/pss/3291643 http://www.jstor.org/pss/3291643. It does raise the question about how well we can know what people meant and felt 2000yrs ago, particularly in this case given the political context.