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This is actually an even more extreme trend among some of the asian immigrant folks I've been in school with - their parents can be incredibly close-minded, ove

This is actually an even more extreme trend among some of the asian immigrant folks I've been in school with - their parents can be incredibly close-minded, overbearing and abusive. The pressure kids feel is largely fictional, in the sense that the world ISN'T going to end if they 'only go to college'. For example when I graduated highschool and went straight to college and some of the folks I knew stayed behind for an extra year to get their grades up - my parents in unison with me, thought they were failures. Looking back - it was smart. I am not working in the field that I studied, so the joke is on me :) Another thing to realize is that there are a number of jobs that are not intellectual that can be quite fulfilling, honestly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRVdiHu1VCc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRVdiHu1VCc This guy is a big proponent of more down to earth careers and I agree with everything he says, even though I'm a programmer. In short - the pressures are due to having a narrow view of the world and what success means. If you widen it to include working construction or going to college to become an ultrasound technician - it's not so bad all of a sudden. Parents just have to stop pushing their lack of achievements and phobias on to their kids - easier said than done of course. Solution? Incentivize intelligent people to breed more and try-hards and ignoramuses to breed less and the problem will be solved, in some number of decades :)

mwcampbell 12y ago
> Another thing to realize is that there are a number of jobs that are not intellectual that can be quite fulfilling, honestly. But won't the non-intellectual jobs continue to be automated away?
- alexashka 12y ago
  I'm not really sure - I wish somebody would answer this question. I initially read 'won't the intellectual jobs continue to be automated away?' and thought to myself, yeah, probably :) haha. Which boils down to no matter what line of work - my hunch is that a lot of it is frivolous. I heard somewhere that scientists came up with a solution to diabetes but since maintaining it is such a huge industry - they're going to keep things as is. Of course that's likely a fictional story but I think the basic gist of it applies - we can absoluuutely optimize the current workforce to reduce oh I don't know, at least 10-20% of it just by giving some smart folks that goal right? How many folks past 50 who don't like what they do are just sitting there collecting maximum salary while contributing less than a 30 year old if not STIFLING potential progress? I bet the answer is A LOT. What if we gave them the option to earn 1/2 what they make right now, asked them to only come in to work 15-20 hours/week? What is a 55 year old dude spending maximum salary on, honestly? Golf? Thinking about it a little bit more - shortening the life-cycle for positions like teaching or managing in fields that move fast given the above proposition would not only be smart, but likely the move of the future. By the time you're in your 50s, you're tired and likely out of touch. Give that space up for somebody young and curious while maintaining a decent standard of living. I bet my dad would take that deal in a heartbeat.
  - fr0styMatt2 12y ago
    I don't know if you meant for your comment to sound as ageist as it does, but it could really do without that last sentence. The 'golf' quip as well. Sure, some 50 year olds might be tired and out of touch. The same could be said about people of any age. Also, being 50 does NOT preclude curiosity. Your 'earn 1/2 of what they make right now' option would be nice, if it were actually feasible. It doesn't take into account the rising base cost of living everywhere. Forget giving up a 'luxurious lifestyle' -- I'm talking about the base cost of living for living in a modest apartment, that's close enough for you to be able to visit your family and friends. So no, I think many 'old dudes' (oh and newsflash - 55 isn't exactly old these days) are spending their money not on 'golf' but on their own mortgage, possibly helping their kids with their mortgages', their medical expenses, their food, etc.
    - alexashka 12y ago
      I think you're disagreeing with a couple of things here: 1. 50+ year olds are just as good as 30 year olds aka 'ageism' 2. Making 1/2 pay would not be enough to live comfortably I don't know if I even need to argue the first one. If you take sports, it's a no brainer. If you look at the physical shape programmers are in at 55, that alone hinders their productivity somewhat. Sure, there's outliers here and there, I am talking most people. If you honestly think an average 55 year old programmer is not significantly less valuable than an average 30 year old programmer TODAY, I don't know. I'd need to know why. What other areas of life are 55 year olds more valuable than 30 year olds? I'd say they're more likely to be a bit more level headed and having had more experience, can avoid some common pitfalls a 30 year old might fall into. That's exactly why they should be occasionally mentoring 30 year olds, not competing with them. I just don't think 55 year olds have the stamina/energy to keep up, it's as simple as that. I'd need proof of them having equal stamina and not significantly worse health and I just don't see how that can be possible. Experience can't offset 25 years of stress, you are likely beat up! Now on to the second point - if you make 100k/year and you live in Toronto (where I live), you can live on 50k. That's if you're the sole provider you can live on 50k. If your wife worked and you were making let's say 200k combined or 175k whatever - and you don't have stacks of money saved up - I don't know what the hell you've been doing! I was suggesting half-pay half-hours to people who are around 100k salary - which's what teachers, programmers, nurses, on and on make in Toronto, Canada. I know for a fact you can live on 50k, I am living on less than that and I have a mortgage, so...
- en4bz 12y ago
  Electrician and Plumber won't be automated away any time soon. Both require more dexterity than any robot currently available and would probably require a 'true' AI as each situation would be significantly different. This is a problem where humans will be both cheaper and more efficient than a robot. Manufacturing (by humans) is definitely on its way out though.
  - Jack000 12y ago
    it's possible that as robots become more commonplace homes would be constructed with robotic/remote repair in mind, I hope that's the case anyways, plumbers and electricians are expensive. Kind of like how mass produced products have structural/design compromises to allow for easier manufacturing. We'll then reminisce about the olden days when you didn't need amazon prime to replace the waste decomposition module every few weeks.
    - xamuel 12y ago
      Notice how increasingly nowadays, if your laptop/desktop/mobile breaks, you just buy a new one. Maybe that could be the future of houses eventually. Ah, the circuit breaker keeps tripping out for some reason, time to call the 3D printers and have a new house built here
- enupten 12y ago
  It's far more likely that it'll be the "intellectual" jobs that'll be automated away.
thinkr 12y ago
It's true that this trend is ingrained in the Asian immigrant community. To expand on your point that the pressures are due to narrow views when determining success, most people and especially Asians, measure success either by how much they have acquired or the status they possess. Well if you don't have either, then you base your success on what your child/ren has accomplished. It's a competition within the community to see who has the more accomplished offspring - I see it every time my parents gather with friends or family - it's sad but it's all they know to do. Anecdotal perspectives: So I grew up poor, but I would say I am quite successful now by most standards - yet I still feel the pressure to achieve much more than I currently have (just from wanting to be the best I can be, but also I feel indebted to my parents and want to give them the world). They never pressured me to be a $high_status_title, but I felt to pressure to be someone that could support them into their old age since I saw how hard they worked to provide for me. In a sense, I understood the world of my parents and because of that, I created pressure for myself to achieve greater success (by their standards). I had a friend in HS, who was extremely smart, and both his parents were doctors, living in a wealthy neighborhood, etc. I constantly saw how much pressure his parents were creating for him, PSAT prep and SAT prep and all that, which I felt he didn't need. Whenever we weren't playing CS, he would be studying to make sure he got into the right colleges, then the right medical schools, though I never really asked him if that's what he wanted out of life. I felt bad for him because I did fine in HS and felt fine just coasting (I didn't begin trying as hard as I should have till junior year of college, but in the end I think I did okay with much luck involved, of course). Well he is now finishing up his medical residency (looks like his studies paid off) and I really hope he feels fulfilled in his career path. Just wanted show that pressure to succeed can come from external factors or pressures we create for ourselves, but I feel things are only getting worse as now we have parents competing to get their kids into particular preschools and all the extracurricular activities that just consume what little childhoods we have to begin with. You can be aware of the circumstances, and do your best to "opt out" of the race, but others will just see that as an opportunity to move ahead, continually fueling these unnecessary pressures.
foobarqux 12y ago
> In short - the pressures are due to having a narrow view of the world and what success means. Except success isn't merely a subjective idea. Even if you could somehow avoid internalizing other people's perception of you, you could not avoid how they treat you.
- chubot 12y ago
  You're right: you can't control how people treat you, but you can choose your environment. You can choose which people you are surrounded by. If you don't want to be in a hypercompetitive environment, Palo Alto is probably not the place to be. Unfortunately those kids didn't have a choice. After being here for more than a decade, my experience is that the Bay Area is kind of a mixed bag. There is certainly the harsh truth that you need a certain amount of economic output to survive here. Lots of artists have been pushed out of SF over last decade or two, despite producing a lot of value for society. So this minimum requirement means is a lot of rat-race-ness, long commutes, and boring jobs. But there are also a lot of curious and interesting people who aren't necessarily motivated by money. And they are doing very interesting things.

mwcampbell 12y ago

> Another thing to realize is that there are a number of jobs that are not intellectual that can be quite fulfilling, honestly. But won't the non-intellectual jobs continue to be automated away?

alexashka 12y ago
I'm not really sure - I wish somebody would answer this question. I initially read 'won't the intellectual jobs continue to be automated away?' and thought to myself, yeah, probably :) haha. Which boils down to no matter what line of work - my hunch is that a lot of it is frivolous. I heard somewhere that scientists came up with a solution to diabetes but since maintaining it is such a huge industry - they're going to keep things as is. Of course that's likely a fictional story but I think the basic gist of it applies - we can absoluuutely optimize the current workforce to reduce oh I don't know, at least 10-20% of it just by giving some smart folks that goal right? How many folks past 50 who don't like what they do are just sitting there collecting maximum salary while contributing less than a 30 year old if not STIFLING potential progress? I bet the answer is A LOT. What if we gave them the option to earn 1/2 what they make right now, asked them to only come in to work 15-20 hours/week? What is a 55 year old dude spending maximum salary on, honestly? Golf? Thinking about it a little bit more - shortening the life-cycle for positions like teaching or managing in fields that move fast given the above proposition would not only be smart, but likely the move of the future. By the time you're in your 50s, you're tired and likely out of touch. Give that space up for somebody young and curious while maintaining a decent standard of living. I bet my dad would take that deal in a heartbeat.
- fr0styMatt2 12y ago
  I don't know if you meant for your comment to sound as ageist as it does, but it could really do without that last sentence. The 'golf' quip as well. Sure, some 50 year olds might be tired and out of touch. The same could be said about people of any age. Also, being 50 does NOT preclude curiosity. Your 'earn 1/2 of what they make right now' option would be nice, if it were actually feasible. It doesn't take into account the rising base cost of living everywhere. Forget giving up a 'luxurious lifestyle' -- I'm talking about the base cost of living for living in a modest apartment, that's close enough for you to be able to visit your family and friends. So no, I think many 'old dudes' (oh and newsflash - 55 isn't exactly old these days) are spending their money not on 'golf' but on their own mortgage, possibly helping their kids with their mortgages', their medical expenses, their food, etc.
  - alexashka 12y ago
    I think you're disagreeing with a couple of things here: 1. 50+ year olds are just as good as 30 year olds aka 'ageism' 2. Making 1/2 pay would not be enough to live comfortably I don't know if I even need to argue the first one. If you take sports, it's a no brainer. If you look at the physical shape programmers are in at 55, that alone hinders their productivity somewhat. Sure, there's outliers here and there, I am talking most people. If you honestly think an average 55 year old programmer is not significantly less valuable than an average 30 year old programmer TODAY, I don't know. I'd need to know why. What other areas of life are 55 year olds more valuable than 30 year olds? I'd say they're more likely to be a bit more level headed and having had more experience, can avoid some common pitfalls a 30 year old might fall into. That's exactly why they should be occasionally mentoring 30 year olds, not competing with them. I just don't think 55 year olds have the stamina/energy to keep up, it's as simple as that. I'd need proof of them having equal stamina and not significantly worse health and I just don't see how that can be possible. Experience can't offset 25 years of stress, you are likely beat up! Now on to the second point - if you make 100k/year and you live in Toronto (where I live), you can live on 50k. That's if you're the sole provider you can live on 50k. If your wife worked and you were making let's say 200k combined or 175k whatever - and you don't have stacks of money saved up - I don't know what the hell you've been doing! I was suggesting half-pay half-hours to people who are around 100k salary - which's what teachers, programmers, nurses, on and on make in Toronto, Canada. I know for a fact you can live on 50k, I am living on less than that and I have a mortgage, so...
en4bz 12y ago
Electrician and Plumber won't be automated away any time soon. Both require more dexterity than any robot currently available and would probably require a 'true' AI as each situation would be significantly different. This is a problem where humans will be both cheaper and more efficient than a robot. Manufacturing (by humans) is definitely on its way out though.
- Jack000 12y ago
  it's possible that as robots become more commonplace homes would be constructed with robotic/remote repair in mind, I hope that's the case anyways, plumbers and electricians are expensive. Kind of like how mass produced products have structural/design compromises to allow for easier manufacturing. We'll then reminisce about the olden days when you didn't need amazon prime to replace the waste decomposition module every few weeks.
  - xamuel 12y ago
    Notice how increasingly nowadays, if your laptop/desktop/mobile breaks, you just buy a new one. Maybe that could be the future of houses eventually. Ah, the circuit breaker keeps tripping out for some reason, time to call the 3D printers and have a new house built here
enupten 12y ago
It's far more likely that it'll be the "intellectual" jobs that'll be automated away.

thinkr 12y ago

It's true that this trend is ingrained in the Asian immigrant community. To expand on your point that the pressures are due to narrow views when determining success, most people and especially Asians, measure success either by how much they have acquired or the status they possess. Well if you don't have either, then you base your success on what your child/ren has accomplished. It's a competition within the community to see who has the more accomplished offspring - I see it every time my parents gather with friends or family - it's sad but it's all they know to do. Anecdotal perspectives: So I grew up poor, but I would say I am quite successful now by most standards - yet I still feel the pressure to achieve much more than I currently have (just from wanting to be the best I can be, but also I feel indebted to my parents and want to give them the world). They never pressured me to be a $high_status_title, but I felt to pressure to be someone that could support them into their old age since I saw how hard they worked to provide for me. In a sense, I understood the world of my parents and because of that, I created pressure for myself to achieve greater success (by their standards). I had a friend in HS, who was extremely smart, and both his parents were doctors, living in a wealthy neighborhood, etc. I constantly saw how much pressure his parents were creating for him, PSAT prep and SAT prep and all that, which I felt he didn't need. Whenever we weren't playing CS, he would be studying to make sure he got into the right colleges, then the right medical schools, though I never really asked him if that's what he wanted out of life. I felt bad for him because I did fine in HS and felt fine just coasting (I didn't begin trying as hard as I should have till junior year of college, but in the end I think I did okay with much luck involved, of course). Well he is now finishing up his medical residency (looks like his studies paid off) and I really hope he feels fulfilled in his career path. Just wanted show that pressure to succeed can come from external factors or pressures we create for ourselves, but I feel things are only getting worse as now we have parents competing to get their kids into particular preschools and all the extracurricular activities that just consume what little childhoods we have to begin with. You can be aware of the circumstances, and do your best to "opt out" of the race, but others will just see that as an opportunity to move ahead, continually fueling these unnecessary pressures.

foobarqux 12y ago

> In short - the pressures are due to having a narrow view of the world and what success means. Except success isn't merely a subjective idea. Even if you could somehow avoid internalizing other people's perception of you, you could not avoid how they treat you.

chubot 12y ago
You're right: you can't control how people treat you, but you can choose your environment. You can choose which people you are surrounded by. If you don't want to be in a hypercompetitive environment, Palo Alto is probably not the place to be. Unfortunately those kids didn't have a choice. After being here for more than a decade, my experience is that the Bay Area is kind of a mixed bag. There is certainly the harsh truth that you need a certain amount of economic output to survive here. Lots of artists have been pushed out of SF over last decade or two, despite producing a lot of value for society. So this minimum requirement means is a lot of rat-race-ness, long commutes, and boring jobs. But there are also a lot of curious and interesting people who aren't necessarily motivated by money. And they are doing very interesting things.