11 ms·

Best, Brightest – and Saddest?

124 points by jacinda 12y ago

1971genocide 12y ago
This article resonates with me. My dad is an successful electrical engineer who people look up-to. I on the other hand hated physics and was never good enough for it. I took an alternate path to do Computer Science which I feel terrible about since I am not sure if I love it because I hated Physics or I choose it because I found it easier. The cost of failure is really high, not because I will end up in the streets which I personally do not have a problem with but I would have to live with the fact that I would have let down what is expected of me. I would have no excuse since biologically I should be able to do it. There are no disadvantages or excuses I can point out to. I have noticed this among many of my white male friends. They seem to have a higher burden when it comes to proving themselves in society. White male problems do not compare to everyone else's problem but its still something that needs to be addressed since mental stress is no joke.
- malvosenior 12y ago
  I wouldn't say that white male problems don't compare because there are a bunch of very poor and struggling white males. That being said, I think even the wealthiest most privileged people are often under a great deal of stress. They may have more pressure to marry someone from another wealthy family, there's the stress of expectations you mention... I'm a hispanic male and often it can be easy to look at people from more economically privileged backgrounds and think to myself "they have it so easy!", but it's not really true. Maybe they have some things easier but they almost certainly have others harder. I've worked myself up a few rungs on the socioeconomic ladder and each time I go up, I feel as if I gain some things and lose others. I never felt more free than when I was a poor person, but I would never go back :)
  - rndn 12y ago
    I read somewhere that stress before and during exams is commonly as extreme as war and near death experiences. In some cases there isn't that much of a difference biochemically, so I think there is certainly some 'social relativity' even if the first world is very privileged.
- jtzhou 12y ago
  Yes, living up to someone else's expectations is a difficult challenge. It becomes more acute when you are a single child, or come from an immigrant family who sacrificed a lot for you to be there, because you have to live up to both of your parents expectations and carry on the family lineage. Simply going to Davis and becoming a nurse or teacher in Fremont, while your friends are celebrating at frat parties at Princeton or Yale, feels like you are letting people down.
  - ScottBurson 12y ago
    Even some who seem to have made it have the same problem. I am reminded of the suicide of Stanford grad student May Zhou [0]. I read some of the statements her father made after her death and was struck by how he was convinced that he knew exactly how she was feeling about her life -- but never said anything about having asked her. My take is that he never gave her any space to be her own person with her own feelings, her own desires, her own dreams -- and though she was outwardly as successful as anyone could want, it wasn't what she wanted to be doing, and she saw no way out of the life her father had designed for her other than killing herself. [0] http://www.sfgate.com/education/article/Stanford-student-committed-suicide-with-pills-2545462.php http://www.sfgate.com/education/article/Stanford-student-com...
- deleted 12y ago
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griffinmahon 12y ago
I've thought about this before, and its left me with a pretty anxiety-inducing idea: that in poorer countries people suffer for their lack of food, water, and medicine, and in the developed world - better off in terms of nutrition and safety - societies as a whole suffer from depression.
Mikeb85 12y ago
This is symptomatic of our society at large (actually many societies, maybe even modern 'global' society). The middle class is being squeezed by rising costs, so your two options are to be perpetually poor (basically limiting you to a life of indentured servitude), or to out-compete your rivals and achieve an upper-middle class to upper class income, and all the perks that come with it. My wife and I struggle with this constantly - income and ability to acquire resources vs. quality of life. While I'm struggling through University while working full-time (and trying to find time for vacations, and time with the wife) and looking forward to a life of working 9-5 (more like 8-7 these days), we also think about the toll this takes on people. Not going to lie, we've been looking at various locations where the cost of living is low (actually, more like where you can get by and start a business with a more reasonable amount of capital), and we can basically live a simpler, higher-quality life. The 'grind' as it is in North America is gruelling, I know many people trying to plot their escape, though it's tough when its all you know... Nothing like studying your ass off for 16+ years, only to work your ass off for another 40+ years, taking on debt that you wind up spending a large portion of your life repaying (while often paying more than double the original price just to service your debt), only to finally retire - old, broken and in poor health, and never enjoying much more of your life than 2-4 weeks every year...
- hv23 12y ago
  Curious, what would be stopping you from leaving the current system? (said without a hint of derision, genuinely curious!)
  - Mikeb85 12y ago
    Grew up here, family and friends are all here. Easier said than done...
- malvosenior 12y ago
  Great post and I definitely sympathize with your position. It's worth noting though that regardless of where you live, starting your own business can be pretty grueling as well. Often much more grueling than a regular "grindy" job. I wish you luck though and hope you can post some of your experiences here.
alexashka 12y ago
This is actually an even more extreme trend among some of the asian immigrant folks I've been in school with - their parents can be incredibly close-minded, overbearing and abusive. The pressure kids feel is largely fictional, in the sense that the world ISN'T going to end if they 'only go to college'. For example when I graduated highschool and went straight to college and some of the folks I knew stayed behind for an extra year to get their grades up - my parents in unison with me, thought they were failures. Looking back - it was smart. I am not working in the field that I studied, so the joke is on me :) Another thing to realize is that there are a number of jobs that are not intellectual that can be quite fulfilling, honestly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRVdiHu1VCc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRVdiHu1VCc This guy is a big proponent of more down to earth careers and I agree with everything he says, even though I'm a programmer. In short - the pressures are due to having a narrow view of the world and what success means. If you widen it to include working construction or going to college to become an ultrasound technician - it's not so bad all of a sudden. Parents just have to stop pushing their lack of achievements and phobias on to their kids - easier said than done of course. Solution? Incentivize intelligent people to breed more and try-hards and ignoramuses to breed less and the problem will be solved, in some number of decades :)
- mwcampbell 12y ago
  > Another thing to realize is that there are a number of jobs that are not intellectual that can be quite fulfilling, honestly. But won't the non-intellectual jobs continue to be automated away?
  - alexashka 12y ago
    I'm not really sure - I wish somebody would answer this question. I initially read 'won't the intellectual jobs continue to be automated away?' and thought to myself, yeah, probably :) haha. Which boils down to no matter what line of work - my hunch is that a lot of it is frivolous. I heard somewhere that scientists came up with a solution to diabetes but since maintaining it is such a huge industry - they're going to keep things as is. Of course that's likely a fictional story but I think the basic gist of it applies - we can absoluuutely optimize the current workforce to reduce oh I don't know, at least 10-20% of it just by giving some smart folks that goal right? How many folks past 50 who don't like what they do are just sitting there collecting maximum salary while contributing less than a 30 year old if not STIFLING potential progress? I bet the answer is A LOT. What if we gave them the option to earn 1/2 what they make right now, asked them to only come in to work 15-20 hours/week? What is a 55 year old dude spending maximum salary on, honestly? Golf? Thinking about it a little bit more - shortening the life-cycle for positions like teaching or managing in fields that move fast given the above proposition would not only be smart, but likely the move of the future. By the time you're in your 50s, you're tired and likely out of touch. Give that space up for somebody young and curious while maintaining a decent standard of living. I bet my dad would take that deal in a heartbeat.
sidek 12y ago
As a student in my last year at an `elite' high school, I can confirm anecdotally that many kids are near breaking point because they feel it is `Ivy or bust'. I think this is an inherent problem with the American university system, where the top tier is so small and so universally desired. I think Canada does it very well. Expectations to get into top Canadian schools are grade-based and their undergraduate enrolment is much larger. If you can pull a 90%+ average,you can be sure that you can go wherever you want in Canada for university. Certainly an undergraduate education at University of Toronto might be not quite as good as Harvard's, but it seems to do wonders for the mental health of Canadian children; none of my friends in Canada have even really stressed about university admissions. For me personally, the Canadian `safety net' also helped a lot: although I am going to Harvard next year, I knew from day one that if anything didn't work out I had myriad wonderful options in Canada.
- interwho 12y ago
  I feel compelled to respond to this, as I know from first-hand experience it isn't true. The pressure is definitely there for Canadian high school students, and 90 isn't enough for some schools anymore. Programs like University of Waterloo's Software Engineering and Mechatronics Engineering and University of Toronto's Engineering Science all require 95+ AND extracurriculars. Same goes for the "best" schools in other categories - Queen's Commerce for business, McMaster's Health Science for premed, etc...
  - lewisl9029 12y ago
    I haven't really kept up with Waterloo's new requirements, but this definitely wasn't the case when I was accepted to their Computer Engineering program 6 years ago with mid 80s average with no advanced placement type courses except 2 IB certificate courses (CE was my first choice so I have no idea how SE or ME requirements would compare). They definitely do take extra-curricular stuff into account as well since some of my friends who had averages in the low 90s ish were rejected from the same program. It's hard for me to believe they've since added a hard cutoff of 95+. It's next to impossible to get grades like that unless your highschool is handing them out like hotcakes at the eventual expense of their own reputation. That said, the university application process is by no means a stress-free experience for students up here. Getting rejected from Waterloo would have been a huge blow to me at the time because I really wanted to experience their mandatory co-op program and understood the value it would bring to my professional career over the lackluster alternatives at other universities.
ryandrake 12y ago
I know it's going to be difficult, if not impossible, for me to not be that overbearing, demanding parent. If current trends continue, when my daughter enters what's left of the workforce in 20 years, she's going to be living in a world where 95% of us are in abject poverty, fighting each other over the last few remaining jobs not already automated away, while the remaining 5% own the automation and means of production and are permanently, insanely wealthy. There will be nobody left in what we'd today call the "middle class". Education will be one's last (even if improbable) chance at class mobility--and in such a world, only the best grades and best educational institution will do. We're moving rapidly towards extreme class polarization--in 20 years, you'll be either an Ivy League graduate or eating dog food to survive.
- seesomesense 12y ago
  " she's going to be living in a world where 95% of us are in abject poverty" Whining excessively is a rich world problem. " abject poverty is "a condition characterized by severe deprivation of basic human needs, including food, safe drinking water, sanitation facilities, health, shelter, education and information. It depends not only on income but also on access to services" The income level for abject poverty is defined by the World Bank as $1.25 at 2005 purchasing-power parity . Are you really saying that 95% of the world is going to be earning less than $1.25 at 2005 purchasing-power parity
BruceM 12y ago
Someone (anontime) posted something here and then deleted it before I could reply. Hopefully they see this.. It sounds like you might find https://www.google.com/webhp?q=suicidal%20exhaustion#q=suicidal+exhaustion https://www.google.com/webhp?q=suicidal%20exhaustion#q=suici... interesting. Good luck! There are plenty of people out there who feel like you do. Just survive a day at a time at first.
feynmanistheman 12y ago
As a high school student in the Bay Area, from what I see the problem lies within the system as a whole. Tiger moms and ridiculous amounts of APs aren't the cause, merely the symptoms. I'm not sure what you can do in Silicon Valley, when a bunch of parents who achieved success try to force their students down the same path they took. It makes logical sense for it to be Stanford or bust, when so many alumni live so close together.
AndrewKemendo 12y ago
I think most people are underanalyzing this as being another instance of "keeping up with the joneses." I think however it's more fundamental than that about someone's place in society. From what we can tell of recorded history, our societies and influence has grown exponentially. Several thousand years ago it was likely uncommon to be exposed to anyone who wasn't within a few hundred miles of you - at the most. Today every person on earth has the potential (if not necessarily the means) to be seen by thousands or millions of people. This shifts how we view ourselves. It makes you think that if you aren't personally impacting the lives of millions of people - in a profound and reasoned way - you are worthless. Where as in previous years having an impact in your small community was good enough, now you need to be globally recognized just to be anyone. It's quite an interesting time for the ego.
fredfoobar42 12y ago
I was told from a very early age that I was going to be something special. I tested into Gifted Education in elementary school. I tested into the best public magnet school in Philadelphia. The whole thing began to unravel in High School, really... got a "No Credit" for an extra-curricular college course, had to retake a year of Geometry, barely made it through High School Trig. But, I went to college to study Computer Science. And failed out. Failed the same Intro to Pre-Calculus class seven fucking times in three semesters. (Half-semester course.) I took a semester off, and enrolled in a local community college. Changed my major to English. Graduated with a BA in 2008, in the middle of the economic crisis. I didn't have any Internships... couldn't afford to take one as I was working to pay my way through college part-time in the evenings. Got a shitty telemarketing job for the benefits, got fired, spent a year out of work, worked for the Philadelphia welfare office for a year and a half, and quit. I lucked into a startup job as a Community Manager, but the environment was borderline abusive, and beyond the border unethical (buying lists of email addresses for their target market to add to their mailing list and calling them active users in fundraising presentations). After getting fired/quitting, I found a decent job doing Web Production for a speciality publishing company. I'm 31, in debt up to my eyeballs with student loans, barely making ends meet, and working a job that offers no challenge and little opportunity for advancement. I have personal projects where I can get some joy, but it's hard to find the time to do those when you're working forty hours a week, with an hour commute each way, and seeing a huge chunk of your cash go towards paying off the creditors for your borderline useless degree. If I didn't have my self-taught HTML and CSS skills, I'd never be where I am, so that's something. I still feel like I should be further along because of all the pushing I was given as a kid. They told me I'd change the world. Instead, I'm just some underemployed schlub. I'm not about to jump in front of a train, but for those kids with more pressure, I can't blame 'em. Wow, that got long. (I kept the names of the companies I worked for silent, because I try to keep this account semi-anonymous. The startup I worked for loves to threaten lawsuits against former---and current---employees who piss off the founder.)
- littletimmy 12y ago
  Honest question: Why don't you leave? If you leave the US, you can bail on your student loans, and you can start a new life with a similar/better standard of living.
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- GigabyteCoin 12y ago
  >I have told my parents, flat out, that I believe I'll kill myself if I go through another semester at college. There's your answer right there. Take a year off. Work. Travel. Do something that doesn't make you want to kill yourself. If your parents don't understand that, well fuck 'em. You'll make friends while you work. You'll make friends while you travel. Your school will certainly take you back when you're ready. You already got yourself through the door once. Just leave on good terms and they'll welcome you back with open arms.
  - deleted 12y ago
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- reality_czech 12y ago
  I think you're being too cynical about campus health services. A lot of those people really do care and they just may not have the resources to do everything that they would want to do. College is important, but definitely not as important as your mental health. If you feel like you need to take a semester off and de-stress, schools generally offer leaves of absence. Being with your family could be very helpful. You could also think about cutting back on the number of classes, to avoid stress. When I was in college, I went to a lot of clubs and meetings for various things, and it helped reduce my isolation. I didn't end up really liking most of those clubs or activities, but there were a few that really helped. If you try a few, you might find one like that!
Animats 12y ago
I used to keep a horse at the horse barn on the Stanford campus, and I've met many Palo Alto high-achieving high school kids there. I asked a group of high school students, mostly from Palo Alto High School, who were discussing grades "What's considered a good grade point average now", and was told, in a bleak voice, "4.5". Some of them thrive on learning. They show up back at the barn, years later, after graduating from a big-name college. It's tough on the ones who aren't quite bright enough for the selective colleges but have parents who expect that level of achievement. I've seen the pain in some who know they're just not bright enough. It's getting worse. Suicides for Paly and Gunn students (those two high schools are the closest to Stanford) have been climbing since about 2009. I knew about the five suicides from Paly, but didn't realize it had reached the point that there are now guards watching the railroad tracks behind the school.
thelogos 12y ago
I think depression may stem from the feeling of helplessness. Being forced to perform meaningless tasks (because that's high school), having absolutely no power and control over your own life, and probably vitamin D deficient too from being cooped up inside all the time studying. You could say many teenagers are already predispose to depression during these turbulent years. Their mind isn't completely prepared quite yet and having tyrants run your life doesn't help. This trend of overemphasis on STEM education and grueling test prep in an effort to game the system started with Asian societies and it's slowly spreading to upper-middle class in western society. I don't think the true upper class ever cared much for STEM education (legacy admission, "donation", MBA, ...). This is not really a good path to go down. Not all of us were meant to be engineers and doctors. Just look East and you will catch a glimpse of the future. Massive youth unemployment, many of them overeducated. Japan is dominated with contract workers. Korea has their "880000 Won generation". Yea, their suicide rate is high. The problem is, everyone wants a piece of the dream and we can't all have it (or maybe we can?). They import manual labor from SE Asia just like we do with illegal immigrants here in the States. With no hope of moving out on such meager wages, you'll have resentment and withdrawal from society. Is it any wonder that their birthrate is going down? I feel like any technological advancement we come up with would still not be enough to overcome this problem. Mainly because the people with the power to make the change have every incentive not to do so. Humans are imperfect. Human society will always be imperfect. The rift is a part of our genetic and the majority of humans will always be chained to indenture servitude. In a way, all this madness will always be a part of us.
- deleted 12y ago
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- guard-of-terra 12y ago
  "Massive youth unemployment, many of them overeducated" Maybe we just have a population bubble that bust? We complain about low birth rates but don't really have use for even that dwindled number of young people.
enupten 12y ago
What never fails to surprise me is our proclivity to think of things in terms of a simple order. Surely, the there is enough diversity in humanity to disallow for so one-dimensional a topology. (I say this after having been subject to years of down-nosery.)
tim333 12y ago
While it's obviously sad, and in some ways more surprising when the best and brightest kill themselves it's not the most common group. From the Samaritans UK based research: > Men from the lowest social class, living in the most deprived areas, are up to ten times more likely to end their lives by suicide than those in the highest social class from the most affluent areas. Men in mid-life are the age group most at risk. I hope more can be done to reduce suicide and make life more cheerful in general - I'm a member of 'Action for Happiness' for what it's worth that campaigns for the latter. In the past suicide and the like has been a bit ignored partly because there were worse things to worry about - death from war, car crashes, disease and the like. Now it's starting to become the biggest cause of death in younger age groups as the other causes get fixed. http://www.samaritans.org/sites/default/files/kcfinder/files/Samaritans_Men_and_Suicide_Report_web.pdf http://www.samaritans.org/sites/default/files/kcfinder/files...
dismal2 12y ago
we need more psychedelics
littletimmy 12y ago
One solution is simply to GTFO the USA. Countries like Germany, for example, have a much better work-life balance. The US is going down a very dangerous route into a class-stratified winner take all society. The only solution is strengthening social security nets and redistributing wealth.
blueskin_ 12y ago
https://archive.today/P6BhP https://archive.today/P6BhP
stegosaurus 12y ago
As a young person living in the UK, it seems to me as if 'social mobility' is the zeitgeist, for lack of a better term. Everyone's talking about it. There are two main issues I have with the idea. The first is that it presupposes a system in which some people are poor, and as long as it's possible for some of those poor people to climb out, we're doibg okay. I don't think that the issues surrounding that are worthy of further comment. The other problem is that under capitalism it's fundamentally impossible outside of limited cases of entrepreneurism. In order for a working class person to have the same lifestyle as a higher status person, they must not only match, but exceed the expectation placed upon an otherwise equal higher status person, because they have a head start. Take homeownership in the UK. A 20something that has had a leg up into the housing market via parental donation or loan has an entrenched advantage forever. I could earn 60K GBP whilst my middle class (via birth) friends earn 40K and forever be 'behind' them in wealth terms. I don't really have much more to say on the topic because I'm not sure how it could be fixed or what that even means, but it's been a central theme in my life since attending University.
- scalesolved 12y ago
  This is so very true, I earn more than a lot of my friends and save more but I'm one of the only ones that doesn't own a house as I never came into a lump sum. I guess you just need to work with what you've got!
  - stegosaurus 12y ago
    Indeed, I've found a way to come to terms with it, but what does bug me is any sort of political discourse that seemingly ignores it entirely. The idea seems to be that poor kids go off to University, get well paid jobs, and that's the end of the story. Except it's not, because my 'well paid' is far higher that of someone who isn't paying rent. Income inequality is a non issue to me. Wealth inequality is the problem.

124 points by jacinda 12y ago

1971genocide 12y ago

This article resonates with me. My dad is an successful electrical engineer who people look up-to. I on the other hand hated physics and was never good enough for it. I took an alternate path to do Computer Science which I feel terrible about since I am not sure if I love it because I hated Physics or I choose it because I found it easier. The cost of failure is really high, not because I will end up in the streets which I personally do not have a problem with but I would have to live with the fact that I would have let down what is expected of me. I would have no excuse since biologically I should be able to do it. There are no disadvantages or excuses I can point out to. I have noticed this among many of my white male friends. They seem to have a higher burden when it comes to proving themselves in society. White male problems do not compare to everyone else's problem but its still something that needs to be addressed since mental stress is no joke.

malvosenior 12y ago
I wouldn't say that white male problems don't compare because there are a bunch of very poor and struggling white males. That being said, I think even the wealthiest most privileged people are often under a great deal of stress. They may have more pressure to marry someone from another wealthy family, there's the stress of expectations you mention... I'm a hispanic male and often it can be easy to look at people from more economically privileged backgrounds and think to myself "they have it so easy!", but it's not really true. Maybe they have some things easier but they almost certainly have others harder. I've worked myself up a few rungs on the socioeconomic ladder and each time I go up, I feel as if I gain some things and lose others. I never felt more free than when I was a poor person, but I would never go back :)
- rndn 12y ago
  I read somewhere that stress before and during exams is commonly as extreme as war and near death experiences. In some cases there isn't that much of a difference biochemically, so I think there is certainly some 'social relativity' even if the first world is very privileged.
jtzhou 12y ago
Yes, living up to someone else's expectations is a difficult challenge. It becomes more acute when you are a single child, or come from an immigrant family who sacrificed a lot for you to be there, because you have to live up to both of your parents expectations and carry on the family lineage. Simply going to Davis and becoming a nurse or teacher in Fremont, while your friends are celebrating at frat parties at Princeton or Yale, feels like you are letting people down.
- ScottBurson 12y ago
  Even some who seem to have made it have the same problem. I am reminded of the suicide of Stanford grad student May Zhou [0]. I read some of the statements her father made after her death and was struck by how he was convinced that he knew exactly how she was feeling about her life -- but never said anything about having asked her. My take is that he never gave her any space to be her own person with her own feelings, her own desires, her own dreams -- and though she was outwardly as successful as anyone could want, it wasn't what she wanted to be doing, and she saw no way out of the life her father had designed for her other than killing herself. [0] http://www.sfgate.com/education/article/Stanford-student-committed-suicide-with-pills-2545462.php http://www.sfgate.com/education/article/Stanford-student-com...
deleted 12y ago
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griffinmahon 12y ago

I've thought about this before, and its left me with a pretty anxiety-inducing idea: that in poorer countries people suffer for their lack of food, water, and medicine, and in the developed world - better off in terms of nutrition and safety - societies as a whole suffer from depression.

Mikeb85 12y ago

This is symptomatic of our society at large (actually many societies, maybe even modern 'global' society). The middle class is being squeezed by rising costs, so your two options are to be perpetually poor (basically limiting you to a life of indentured servitude), or to out-compete your rivals and achieve an upper-middle class to upper class income, and all the perks that come with it. My wife and I struggle with this constantly - income and ability to acquire resources vs. quality of life. While I'm struggling through University while working full-time (and trying to find time for vacations, and time with the wife) and looking forward to a life of working 9-5 (more like 8-7 these days), we also think about the toll this takes on people. Not going to lie, we've been looking at various locations where the cost of living is low (actually, more like where you can get by and start a business with a more reasonable amount of capital), and we can basically live a simpler, higher-quality life. The 'grind' as it is in North America is gruelling, I know many people trying to plot their escape, though it's tough when its all you know... Nothing like studying your ass off for 16+ years, only to work your ass off for another 40+ years, taking on debt that you wind up spending a large portion of your life repaying (while often paying more than double the original price just to service your debt), only to finally retire - old, broken and in poor health, and never enjoying much more of your life than 2-4 weeks every year...

hv23 12y ago
Curious, what would be stopping you from leaving the current system? (said without a hint of derision, genuinely curious!)
- Mikeb85 12y ago
  Grew up here, family and friends are all here. Easier said than done...
malvosenior 12y ago
Great post and I definitely sympathize with your position. It's worth noting though that regardless of where you live, starting your own business can be pretty grueling as well. Often much more grueling than a regular "grindy" job. I wish you luck though and hope you can post some of your experiences here.

alexashka 12y ago

This is actually an even more extreme trend among some of the asian immigrant folks I've been in school with - their parents can be incredibly close-minded, overbearing and abusive. The pressure kids feel is largely fictional, in the sense that the world ISN'T going to end if they 'only go to college'. For example when I graduated highschool and went straight to college and some of the folks I knew stayed behind for an extra year to get their grades up - my parents in unison with me, thought they were failures. Looking back - it was smart. I am not working in the field that I studied, so the joke is on me :) Another thing to realize is that there are a number of jobs that are not intellectual that can be quite fulfilling, honestly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRVdiHu1VCc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRVdiHu1VCc This guy is a big proponent of more down to earth careers and I agree with everything he says, even though I'm a programmer. In short - the pressures are due to having a narrow view of the world and what success means. If you widen it to include working construction or going to college to become an ultrasound technician - it's not so bad all of a sudden. Parents just have to stop pushing their lack of achievements and phobias on to their kids - easier said than done of course. Solution? Incentivize intelligent people to breed more and try-hards and ignoramuses to breed less and the problem will be solved, in some number of decades :)

mwcampbell 12y ago
> Another thing to realize is that there are a number of jobs that are not intellectual that can be quite fulfilling, honestly. But won't the non-intellectual jobs continue to be automated away?
- alexashka 12y ago
  I'm not really sure - I wish somebody would answer this question. I initially read 'won't the intellectual jobs continue to be automated away?' and thought to myself, yeah, probably :) haha. Which boils down to no matter what line of work - my hunch is that a lot of it is frivolous. I heard somewhere that scientists came up with a solution to diabetes but since maintaining it is such a huge industry - they're going to keep things as is. Of course that's likely a fictional story but I think the basic gist of it applies - we can absoluuutely optimize the current workforce to reduce oh I don't know, at least 10-20% of it just by giving some smart folks that goal right? How many folks past 50 who don't like what they do are just sitting there collecting maximum salary while contributing less than a 30 year old if not STIFLING potential progress? I bet the answer is A LOT. What if we gave them the option to earn 1/2 what they make right now, asked them to only come in to work 15-20 hours/week? What is a 55 year old dude spending maximum salary on, honestly? Golf? Thinking about it a little bit more - shortening the life-cycle for positions like teaching or managing in fields that move fast given the above proposition would not only be smart, but likely the move of the future. By the time you're in your 50s, you're tired and likely out of touch. Give that space up for somebody young and curious while maintaining a decent standard of living. I bet my dad would take that deal in a heartbeat.

sidek 12y ago

As a student in my last year at an `elite' high school, I can confirm anecdotally that many kids are near breaking point because they feel it is `Ivy or bust'. I think this is an inherent problem with the American university system, where the top tier is so small and so universally desired. I think Canada does it very well. Expectations to get into top Canadian schools are grade-based and their undergraduate enrolment is much larger. If you can pull a 90%+ average,you can be sure that you can go wherever you want in Canada for university. Certainly an undergraduate education at University of Toronto might be not quite as good as Harvard's, but it seems to do wonders for the mental health of Canadian children; none of my friends in Canada have even really stressed about university admissions. For me personally, the Canadian `safety net' also helped a lot: although I am going to Harvard next year, I knew from day one that if anything didn't work out I had myriad wonderful options in Canada.

interwho 12y ago
I feel compelled to respond to this, as I know from first-hand experience it isn't true. The pressure is definitely there for Canadian high school students, and 90 isn't enough for some schools anymore. Programs like University of Waterloo's Software Engineering and Mechatronics Engineering and University of Toronto's Engineering Science all require 95+ AND extracurriculars. Same goes for the "best" schools in other categories - Queen's Commerce for business, McMaster's Health Science for premed, etc...
- lewisl9029 12y ago
  I haven't really kept up with Waterloo's new requirements, but this definitely wasn't the case when I was accepted to their Computer Engineering program 6 years ago with mid 80s average with no advanced placement type courses except 2 IB certificate courses (CE was my first choice so I have no idea how SE or ME requirements would compare). They definitely do take extra-curricular stuff into account as well since some of my friends who had averages in the low 90s ish were rejected from the same program. It's hard for me to believe they've since added a hard cutoff of 95+. It's next to impossible to get grades like that unless your highschool is handing them out like hotcakes at the eventual expense of their own reputation. That said, the university application process is by no means a stress-free experience for students up here. Getting rejected from Waterloo would have been a huge blow to me at the time because I really wanted to experience their mandatory co-op program and understood the value it would bring to my professional career over the lackluster alternatives at other universities.

ryandrake 12y ago

I know it's going to be difficult, if not impossible, for me to not be that overbearing, demanding parent. If current trends continue, when my daughter enters what's left of the workforce in 20 years, she's going to be living in a world where 95% of us are in abject poverty, fighting each other over the last few remaining jobs not already automated away, while the remaining 5% own the automation and means of production and are permanently, insanely wealthy. There will be nobody left in what we'd today call the "middle class". Education will be one's last (even if improbable) chance at class mobility--and in such a world, only the best grades and best educational institution will do. We're moving rapidly towards extreme class polarization--in 20 years, you'll be either an Ivy League graduate or eating dog food to survive.

seesomesense 12y ago
" she's going to be living in a world where 95% of us are in abject poverty" Whining excessively is a rich world problem. " abject poverty is "a condition characterized by severe deprivation of basic human needs, including food, safe drinking water, sanitation facilities, health, shelter, education and information. It depends not only on income but also on access to services" The income level for abject poverty is defined by the World Bank as $1.25 at 2005 purchasing-power parity . Are you really saying that 95% of the world is going to be earning less than $1.25 at 2005 purchasing-power parity

BruceM 12y ago

Someone (anontime) posted something here and then deleted it before I could reply. Hopefully they see this.. It sounds like you might find https://www.google.com/webhp?q=suicidal%20exhaustion#q=suicidal+exhaustion https://www.google.com/webhp?q=suicidal%20exhaustion#q=suici... interesting. Good luck! There are plenty of people out there who feel like you do. Just survive a day at a time at first.

feynmanistheman 12y ago

As a high school student in the Bay Area, from what I see the problem lies within the system as a whole. Tiger moms and ridiculous amounts of APs aren't the cause, merely the symptoms. I'm not sure what you can do in Silicon Valley, when a bunch of parents who achieved success try to force their students down the same path they took. It makes logical sense for it to be Stanford or bust, when so many alumni live so close together.

AndrewKemendo 12y ago

I think most people are underanalyzing this as being another instance of "keeping up with the joneses." I think however it's more fundamental than that about someone's place in society. From what we can tell of recorded history, our societies and influence has grown exponentially. Several thousand years ago it was likely uncommon to be exposed to anyone who wasn't within a few hundred miles of you - at the most. Today every person on earth has the potential (if not necessarily the means) to be seen by thousands or millions of people. This shifts how we view ourselves. It makes you think that if you aren't personally impacting the lives of millions of people - in a profound and reasoned way - you are worthless. Where as in previous years having an impact in your small community was good enough, now you need to be globally recognized just to be anyone. It's quite an interesting time for the ego.

fredfoobar42 12y ago

I was told from a very early age that I was going to be something special. I tested into Gifted Education in elementary school. I tested into the best public magnet school in Philadelphia. The whole thing began to unravel in High School, really... got a "No Credit" for an extra-curricular college course, had to retake a year of Geometry, barely made it through High School Trig. But, I went to college to study Computer Science. And failed out. Failed the same Intro to Pre-Calculus class seven fucking times in three semesters. (Half-semester course.) I took a semester off, and enrolled in a local community college. Changed my major to English. Graduated with a BA in 2008, in the middle of the economic crisis. I didn't have any Internships... couldn't afford to take one as I was working to pay my way through college part-time in the evenings. Got a shitty telemarketing job for the benefits, got fired, spent a year out of work, worked for the Philadelphia welfare office for a year and a half, and quit. I lucked into a startup job as a Community Manager, but the environment was borderline abusive, and beyond the border unethical (buying lists of email addresses for their target market to add to their mailing list and calling them active users in fundraising presentations). After getting fired/quitting, I found a decent job doing Web Production for a speciality publishing company. I'm 31, in debt up to my eyeballs with student loans, barely making ends meet, and working a job that offers no challenge and little opportunity for advancement. I have personal projects where I can get some joy, but it's hard to find the time to do those when you're working forty hours a week, with an hour commute each way, and seeing a huge chunk of your cash go towards paying off the creditors for your borderline useless degree. If I didn't have my self-taught HTML and CSS skills, I'd never be where I am, so that's something. I still feel like I should be further along because of all the pushing I was given as a kid. They told me I'd change the world. Instead, I'm just some underemployed schlub. I'm not about to jump in front of a train, but for those kids with more pressure, I can't blame 'em. Wow, that got long. (I kept the names of the companies I worked for silent, because I try to keep this account semi-anonymous. The startup I worked for loves to threaten lawsuits against former---and current---employees who piss off the founder.)

littletimmy 12y ago
Honest question: Why don't you leave? If you leave the US, you can bail on your student loans, and you can start a new life with a similar/better standard of living.

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GigabyteCoin 12y ago
>I have told my parents, flat out, that I believe I'll kill myself if I go through another semester at college. There's your answer right there. Take a year off. Work. Travel. Do something that doesn't make you want to kill yourself. If your parents don't understand that, well fuck 'em. You'll make friends while you work. You'll make friends while you travel. Your school will certainly take you back when you're ready. You already got yourself through the door once. Just leave on good terms and they'll welcome you back with open arms.
- deleted 12y ago
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reality_czech 12y ago
I think you're being too cynical about campus health services. A lot of those people really do care and they just may not have the resources to do everything that they would want to do. College is important, but definitely not as important as your mental health. If you feel like you need to take a semester off and de-stress, schools generally offer leaves of absence. Being with your family could be very helpful. You could also think about cutting back on the number of classes, to avoid stress. When I was in college, I went to a lot of clubs and meetings for various things, and it helped reduce my isolation. I didn't end up really liking most of those clubs or activities, but there were a few that really helped. If you try a few, you might find one like that!

Animats 12y ago

I used to keep a horse at the horse barn on the Stanford campus, and I've met many Palo Alto high-achieving high school kids there. I asked a group of high school students, mostly from Palo Alto High School, who were discussing grades "What's considered a good grade point average now", and was told, in a bleak voice, "4.5". Some of them thrive on learning. They show up back at the barn, years later, after graduating from a big-name college. It's tough on the ones who aren't quite bright enough for the selective colleges but have parents who expect that level of achievement. I've seen the pain in some who know they're just not bright enough. It's getting worse. Suicides for Paly and Gunn students (those two high schools are the closest to Stanford) have been climbing since about 2009. I knew about the five suicides from Paly, but didn't realize it had reached the point that there are now guards watching the railroad tracks behind the school.

thelogos 12y ago

I think depression may stem from the feeling of helplessness. Being forced to perform meaningless tasks (because that's high school), having absolutely no power and control over your own life, and probably vitamin D deficient too from being cooped up inside all the time studying. You could say many teenagers are already predispose to depression during these turbulent years. Their mind isn't completely prepared quite yet and having tyrants run your life doesn't help. This trend of overemphasis on STEM education and grueling test prep in an effort to game the system started with Asian societies and it's slowly spreading to upper-middle class in western society. I don't think the true upper class ever cared much for STEM education (legacy admission, "donation", MBA, ...). This is not really a good path to go down. Not all of us were meant to be engineers and doctors. Just look East and you will catch a glimpse of the future. Massive youth unemployment, many of them overeducated. Japan is dominated with contract workers. Korea has their "880000 Won generation". Yea, their suicide rate is high. The problem is, everyone wants a piece of the dream and we can't all have it (or maybe we can?). They import manual labor from SE Asia just like we do with illegal immigrants here in the States. With no hope of moving out on such meager wages, you'll have resentment and withdrawal from society. Is it any wonder that their birthrate is going down? I feel like any technological advancement we come up with would still not be enough to overcome this problem. Mainly because the people with the power to make the change have every incentive not to do so. Humans are imperfect. Human society will always be imperfect. The rift is a part of our genetic and the majority of humans will always be chained to indenture servitude. In a way, all this madness will always be a part of us.

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guard-of-terra 12y ago
"Massive youth unemployment, many of them overeducated" Maybe we just have a population bubble that bust? We complain about low birth rates but don't really have use for even that dwindled number of young people.

enupten 12y ago

What never fails to surprise me is our proclivity to think of things in terms of a simple order. Surely, the there is enough diversity in humanity to disallow for so one-dimensional a topology. (I say this after having been subject to years of down-nosery.)

tim333 12y ago

While it's obviously sad, and in some ways more surprising when the best and brightest kill themselves it's not the most common group. From the Samaritans UK based research: > Men from the lowest social class, living in the most deprived areas, are up to ten times more likely to end their lives by suicide than those in the highest social class from the most affluent areas. Men in mid-life are the age group most at risk. I hope more can be done to reduce suicide and make life more cheerful in general - I'm a member of 'Action for Happiness' for what it's worth that campaigns for the latter. In the past suicide and the like has been a bit ignored partly because there were worse things to worry about - death from war, car crashes, disease and the like. Now it's starting to become the biggest cause of death in younger age groups as the other causes get fixed. http://www.samaritans.org/sites/default/files/kcfinder/files/Samaritans_Men_and_Suicide_Report_web.pdf http://www.samaritans.org/sites/default/files/kcfinder/files...

dismal2 12y ago

we need more psychedelics

littletimmy 12y ago

One solution is simply to GTFO the USA. Countries like Germany, for example, have a much better work-life balance. The US is going down a very dangerous route into a class-stratified winner take all society. The only solution is strengthening social security nets and redistributing wealth.

blueskin_ 12y ago

https://archive.today/P6BhP https://archive.today/P6BhP

stegosaurus 12y ago

As a young person living in the UK, it seems to me as if 'social mobility' is the zeitgeist, for lack of a better term. Everyone's talking about it. There are two main issues I have with the idea. The first is that it presupposes a system in which some people are poor, and as long as it's possible for some of those poor people to climb out, we're doibg okay. I don't think that the issues surrounding that are worthy of further comment. The other problem is that under capitalism it's fundamentally impossible outside of limited cases of entrepreneurism. In order for a working class person to have the same lifestyle as a higher status person, they must not only match, but exceed the expectation placed upon an otherwise equal higher status person, because they have a head start. Take homeownership in the UK. A 20something that has had a leg up into the housing market via parental donation or loan has an entrenched advantage forever. I could earn 60K GBP whilst my middle class (via birth) friends earn 40K and forever be 'behind' them in wealth terms. I don't really have much more to say on the topic because I'm not sure how it could be fixed or what that even means, but it's been a central theme in my life since attending University.

scalesolved 12y ago
This is so very true, I earn more than a lot of my friends and save more but I'm one of the only ones that doesn't own a house as I never came into a lump sum. I guess you just need to work with what you've got!
- stegosaurus 12y ago
  Indeed, I've found a way to come to terms with it, but what does bug me is any sort of political discourse that seemingly ignores it entirely. The idea seems to be that poor kids go off to University, get well paid jobs, and that's the end of the story. Except it's not, because my 'well paid' is far higher that of someone who isn't paying rent. Income inequality is a non issue to me. Wealth inequality is the problem.