4 ms·

Yeah sure, the countless resellers of MSFT, Oracle, IBM, VMWare, Redhat, EMC all do not understand business at all. If only some of the uptards knew how little

Yeah sure, the countless resellers of MSFT, Oracle, IBM, VMWare, Redhat, EMC all do not understand business at all. If only some of the uptards knew how little they know, yet how much they run their mouth.

jacquesm 12y ago
I think you're mis-understanding the issue, but that's fine. Let me try to explain it a bit better: if you use documented interfaces and have an established supplier role with a larger company that's fine. But if you are taking data from some API and you're re-purposing that data in a way that the company supplying you with that data may not agree with then you may one day find your access terminated. You probably should not include RedHat in a list like that.
- blumkvist 12y ago
  So, "Never, ever trust another company for your business model" is in fact a thought terminating cliche?
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    You're stuck in a loop.
    - blumkvist 12y ago
      1) Make an overgenaratilzation; 2) Get called out; 3) Make a defense, only to expose your overgeneralization yourself; 4) Get called out for it; 5) ???? 6) You're stuck in a loop.
      - ColinWright 12y ago
        Let's get back to an earlier question to help me understand your position. The original is: Never, ever trust another company for your business model. In this comment[0] in response to a scenario wherein one company did trust another and got screwed you said: What's wrong is the lack of contract or agreement. If a contract or agreement is required, then that would indicate that one should, indeed, not trust another company for one's business model. So it seems that you agree with the actual statement. Is that the case? [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9363982 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9363982
  - ColinWright 12y ago
    People will take any opportunity to stop thinking: Most people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so. -- Bertrand Russell In short, if it's a "thought-terminating cliche" then the problem may not be in the way it's expressed, but in the way it's interpreted. If someone chooses to terminate their thoughts based on something someone says, without considering why they might be saying it, and why there may be value to be extracted from it, then maybe the problem is not with the expression, but with them. Think of it this way. You may consider it a given that there are times and places where you can and should trust other businesses. This statement about never, ever trusting a another business therefore seems to be at odds with your experience. Do you ignore it, or do you use it as an opportunity to learn why someone might say it?
- danmaz74 12y ago
  But DataSift was actually buying the firehose from Twitter, and they got screwed anyway.
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    Which only re-inforces the statement, definitely does not detract from it. But normally speaking you write your contracts in such a way that one party can not unilaterally withdraw without serious penalties.
    - danmaz74 12y ago
      AFAIK the contract simply expired (I think it was 5-year old) and Twitter refused to renew it.
ColinWright 12y ago
Those resellers are not trusting those other businesses, they have in place legally enforceable agreements. There's a difference. I honestly don't understand the point you're trying to make, so let me parody your stance and you can explain where I'm wrong. * I create and provide a service * Said service has an interface * You spot a service you can provide based on my interface * You build a business using that interface * You are successful * I notice you're successful and build a clone * I launch my clone and make the interface unavailable to you * Lots of your customers switch to using my replacement * You go out of business. Is that all OK in your opinion? If not, what's wrong?
- blumkvist 12y ago
  What's wrong is the lack of contract or agreement. If you jump on a business opportunity without formal contracts, it's your own fault. Generally speaking, if defense and risk mitigation is not your first thought when evaluating opportunities, you probably should stick to applying your technical skills, working for people who understand those things. But of course, MBAs are for suckers who know nothing and should just cease to exist. At least that's what I keep hearing on HN.
  - ColinWright 12y ago
    So, what I hear you saying is this: Never, ever *trust* a company: always have formal contracts. If you can't get formal contracts, don't work with them or rely on them. That seems to match what I said, which was: Never, ever trust another company for your business model. You seem to be saying exactly the same thing. You seem to be saying: Put formal contracts in place. If you trust someone then you don't need formal contracts. If you need formal contracts, you don't trust them. Am I missing something? It really does seem to me that we have pretty much exactly the same viewpoint - there is a risk analysis to be done, and risk mitigation is critical. My risk analysis says that if someone else is in a position to screw you over completely, don't proceed on blind faith. Instead, have contracts or agreements in place. In other words: Don't trust them. We're back to what I originally said. Do you disagree with it? It seems like you're actually in complete agreement.

jacquesm 12y ago

I think you're mis-understanding the issue, but that's fine. Let me try to explain it a bit better: if you use documented interfaces and have an established supplier role with a larger company that's fine. But if you are taking data from some API and you're re-purposing that data in a way that the company supplying you with that data may not agree with then you may one day find your access terminated. You probably should not include RedHat in a list like that.

blumkvist 12y ago
So, "Never, ever trust another company for your business model" is in fact a thought terminating cliche?
- jacquesm 12y ago
  You're stuck in a loop.
  - blumkvist 12y ago
    1) Make an overgenaratilzation; 2) Get called out; 3) Make a defense, only to expose your overgeneralization yourself; 4) Get called out for it; 5) ???? 6) You're stuck in a loop.
    - ColinWright 12y ago
      Let's get back to an earlier question to help me understand your position. The original is: Never, ever trust another company for your business model. In this comment[0] in response to a scenario wherein one company did trust another and got screwed you said: What's wrong is the lack of contract or agreement. If a contract or agreement is required, then that would indicate that one should, indeed, not trust another company for one's business model. So it seems that you agree with the actual statement. Is that the case? [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9363982 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9363982
- ColinWright 12y ago
  People will take any opportunity to stop thinking: Most people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so. -- Bertrand Russell In short, if it's a "thought-terminating cliche" then the problem may not be in the way it's expressed, but in the way it's interpreted. If someone chooses to terminate their thoughts based on something someone says, without considering why they might be saying it, and why there may be value to be extracted from it, then maybe the problem is not with the expression, but with them. Think of it this way. You may consider it a given that there are times and places where you can and should trust other businesses. This statement about never, ever trusting a another business therefore seems to be at odds with your experience. Do you ignore it, or do you use it as an opportunity to learn why someone might say it?
danmaz74 12y ago
But DataSift was actually buying the firehose from Twitter, and they got screwed anyway.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  Which only re-inforces the statement, definitely does not detract from it. But normally speaking you write your contracts in such a way that one party can not unilaterally withdraw without serious penalties.
  - danmaz74 12y ago
    AFAIK the contract simply expired (I think it was 5-year old) and Twitter refused to renew it.

ColinWright 12y ago

Those resellers are not trusting those other businesses, they have in place legally enforceable agreements. There's a difference. I honestly don't understand the point you're trying to make, so let me parody your stance and you can explain where I'm wrong. * I create and provide a service * Said service has an interface * You spot a service you can provide based on my interface * You build a business using that interface * You are successful * I notice you're successful and build a clone * I launch my clone and make the interface unavailable to you * Lots of your customers switch to using my replacement * You go out of business. Is that all OK in your opinion? If not, what's wrong?

blumkvist 12y ago
What's wrong is the lack of contract or agreement. If you jump on a business opportunity without formal contracts, it's your own fault. Generally speaking, if defense and risk mitigation is not your first thought when evaluating opportunities, you probably should stick to applying your technical skills, working for people who understand those things. But of course, MBAs are for suckers who know nothing and should just cease to exist. At least that's what I keep hearing on HN.
- ColinWright 12y ago
  So, what I hear you saying is this: Never, ever *trust* a company: always have formal contracts. If you can't get formal contracts, don't work with them or rely on them. That seems to match what I said, which was: Never, ever trust another company for your business model. You seem to be saying exactly the same thing. You seem to be saying: Put formal contracts in place. If you trust someone then you don't need formal contracts. If you need formal contracts, you don't trust them. Am I missing something? It really does seem to me that we have pretty much exactly the same viewpoint - there is a risk analysis to be done, and risk mitigation is critical. My risk analysis says that if someone else is in a position to screw you over completely, don't proceed on blind faith. Instead, have contracts or agreements in place. In other words: Don't trust them. We're back to what I originally said. Do you disagree with it? It seems like you're actually in complete agreement.