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But there is a very real North/South divide in the way the economies are structured and in societal norms (trust in others, corruption, tax evasion, clientelism

But there is a very real North/South divide in the way the economies are structured and in societal norms (trust in others, corruption, tax evasion, clientelism). The PIIGS acronym wasn't conjured out of free air (Ireland seems over the worst, so we are down to PIGS now). Doesn't it piss you off, btw, that Eastern European countries with a poorer population than Greece participated in the Greek bailout but the Greeks still think they are entitled to more?

danmaz74 12y ago
Are you trying to tell me that countries from the former Soviet block are corruption free? In my own experience they are much more corrupted than Italy; there is no correlation between corruption and latitude. Regarding entitlement from some Greeks, I agree. But you should keep in mind the total net from/to the EU: all those poorer countries, even with the bailout, are getting much more from the EU than they are giving (as it should be).
- peterfirefly 12y ago
  > Are you trying to tell me that countries from the former Soviet block are corruption free? Not at all! But, yes, there /is/ a correlation between corruption and latitude.
- ptaipale 12y ago
  > Are you trying to tell me that countries from the former Soviet block are corruption free? I don't see him saying that. I see him saying that countries of the former Soviet block have poorer population than Greece [0] but are subsidizing it. Also as nations they are poorer, though their GDP has climbed to the same level. They soon will be richer than Greece. In 1990, they were still much poorer, as they were still under Soviet occupation and influence, while Greece had been a member of EEC/EC for ten years. Greece is lagging behind due to its sclerotic economy and clientelism of previous power parties, and Syriza seems to revert to the same. [0] http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=BLI http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=BLI
  - danmaz74 12y ago
    I quote: > But there is a very real North/South divide in the way the economies are structured and in societal norms (trust in others, corruption, tax evasion, clientelism) This is very poor simplifcation, and pretty offensive too.
    - ptaipale 12y ago
      It might be offensive, but is it untrue? Note that we're not saying things about people as individuals. We're talking about national cultures, stereotypes and statistical averages. "Where trust is high, crime and corruption are low". http://www.pewglobal.org/2008/04/15/where-trust-is-high-crime-and-corruption-are-low/ http://www.pewglobal.org/2008/04/15/where-trust-is-high-crim... Regarding trust, below is one source for how people see it. Look at the European map. There's a bit of north/south divide (with Italy being somewhat north). http://www.jdsurvey.net/jds/jdsurveyActualidad.jsp?Idioma=I&SeccionTexto=0404&NOID=104 http://www.jdsurvey.net/jds/jdsurveyActualidad.jsp?Idioma=I&... This is not the same as amount of corruption (note how high China and Saudi Arabia are in the "most people can be trusted" index, while they don't rate as well in corruption indexes). Here's the Transparency's Corruption index map: https://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results https://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results Crime maps are many but what I can find quickly are not incompatible with this generalisation either: http://www.numbeo.com/crime/gmaps_rankings_country.jsp http://www.numbeo.com/crime/gmaps_rankings_country.jsp
      - danmaz74 12y ago
        > We're talking about national cultures, stereotypes and statistical averages. Exactly, stereotypes... and no, they're not true. I live in Italy and know Russia well enough, and Russia is much more corrupted than Italy. How much northern than Russia can you go? Cultural problem? Yes. Latitude-related problem? No. Linking this to latitude is like linking problems to the color of your skin: you can't change the color of your skin, nor your latitude. Culture, on the other hand, can and does change. BTW Italy has indeed a big problem with corruption, but one funny thing is that most Italians like to publicly bash Italy, so the relative perception of corruption is even higher than it actually should be, especially vs countries where most people think "right or wrong, my Country" ;)

danmaz74 12y ago

Are you trying to tell me that countries from the former Soviet block are corruption free? In my own experience they are much more corrupted than Italy; there is no correlation between corruption and latitude. Regarding entitlement from some Greeks, I agree. But you should keep in mind the total net from/to the EU: all those poorer countries, even with the bailout, are getting much more from the EU than they are giving (as it should be).

peterfirefly 12y ago
> Are you trying to tell me that countries from the former Soviet block are corruption free? Not at all! But, yes, there /is/ a correlation between corruption and latitude.
ptaipale 12y ago
> Are you trying to tell me that countries from the former Soviet block are corruption free? I don't see him saying that. I see him saying that countries of the former Soviet block have poorer population than Greece [0] but are subsidizing it. Also as nations they are poorer, though their GDP has climbed to the same level. They soon will be richer than Greece. In 1990, they were still much poorer, as they were still under Soviet occupation and influence, while Greece had been a member of EEC/EC for ten years. Greece is lagging behind due to its sclerotic economy and clientelism of previous power parties, and Syriza seems to revert to the same. [0] http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=BLI http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=BLI
- danmaz74 12y ago
  I quote: > But there is a very real North/South divide in the way the economies are structured and in societal norms (trust in others, corruption, tax evasion, clientelism) This is very poor simplifcation, and pretty offensive too.
  - ptaipale 12y ago
    It might be offensive, but is it untrue? Note that we're not saying things about people as individuals. We're talking about national cultures, stereotypes and statistical averages. "Where trust is high, crime and corruption are low". http://www.pewglobal.org/2008/04/15/where-trust-is-high-crime-and-corruption-are-low/ http://www.pewglobal.org/2008/04/15/where-trust-is-high-crim... Regarding trust, below is one source for how people see it. Look at the European map. There's a bit of north/south divide (with Italy being somewhat north). http://www.jdsurvey.net/jds/jdsurveyActualidad.jsp?Idioma=I&SeccionTexto=0404&NOID=104 http://www.jdsurvey.net/jds/jdsurveyActualidad.jsp?Idioma=I&... This is not the same as amount of corruption (note how high China and Saudi Arabia are in the "most people can be trusted" index, while they don't rate as well in corruption indexes). Here's the Transparency's Corruption index map: https://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results https://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results Crime maps are many but what I can find quickly are not incompatible with this generalisation either: http://www.numbeo.com/crime/gmaps_rankings_country.jsp http://www.numbeo.com/crime/gmaps_rankings_country.jsp
    - danmaz74 12y ago
      > We're talking about national cultures, stereotypes and statistical averages. Exactly, stereotypes... and no, they're not true. I live in Italy and know Russia well enough, and Russia is much more corrupted than Italy. How much northern than Russia can you go? Cultural problem? Yes. Latitude-related problem? No. Linking this to latitude is like linking problems to the color of your skin: you can't change the color of your skin, nor your latitude. Culture, on the other hand, can and does change. BTW Italy has indeed a big problem with corruption, but one funny thing is that most Italians like to publicly bash Italy, so the relative perception of corruption is even higher than it actually should be, especially vs countries where most people think "right or wrong, my Country" ;)