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2008 - Facebook had a meeting with us Crowdstar describing how our current business model (quizzes) was getting their own section in their TOS, and would cease

2008 - Facebook had a meeting with us Crowdstar describing how our current business model (quizzes) was getting their own section in their TOS, and would cease to exist. 2010 - After switching to a game model and doing quite well - neck and neck with Zynga. We were walked into a Facebook meeting room and told a bizarre story how Mark was upset about friend feed forms. They explained that we could only share (by means of post feed forms) our games with people that already had our games. Pleading did nothing, they ended that model. Zynaga is still flailing around. 2012 - I changed companies and focused on mobile advertising. Another decent path with 12 employees or so. We got a phone call . [EDIT REMOVED REST OF STORY] 2015 - I received another phone call from a large company (They deal in search) . I wont go into this one. * Phone calls from large companies are extremely bad. That means they don't want things in writing. So sure, have fun with working with large companies. Just remember one thing: they hate you.

harperlee 12y ago
Honest question, because I'm neiher american nor familiar with their common law: Let's call the company that called us [redacted] Does that really hold water, legally speaking? Because we all know what are you implying...
- ransom1538 12y ago
  Thanks removed.
  - mcintyre1994 12y ago
    FYI you haven't edited the dupe post (if you can), I assume it's the same as the original here.
    - dang 12y ago
      Since it was a duplicate anyway, we'll delete it.
- raverbashing 12y ago
  If you think this is inappropriate you shouldn't be quoting it
  - harperlee 12y ago
    You are completely right, I didn't think that the parent would delete it (it was a honest question, really). But I can't edit it now. Perhaps someone from HN can?
    - dang 12y ago
      Ok, we redacted that bit.
      - harperlee 12y ago
        Thank you!
LargeCompanies 12y ago
Indeed they hate you and just may treat you like a dog too. Here you have worked and toiled away for years trying to get your big break. Finally it comes and you get a phone call or invited out to the valley to demo/talk about selling your blood, sweat and tears. You then realize your just getting stomped on and they may have just stolen all your hard work. You think ...huh this is how it goes for the little guy innovator against this huge tech company you held in such high regard. The tech world is not a extremely friendly place to even a ton of Caucasian guys(it's all about who you know/who is behind you), yet alone to any person who isn't!
vdaniuk 12y ago
Corps don't hate you, they use and plunder, their plans executed with a blind determination of a hivemind, no emotions involved(usually). They are borg, controlled by their drive for expansion. If you can be a valuable ally against competing borg or help them consolidate a fragmented market, your business will flourish until you are no longer needed. These are the rules of the game.
- bduerst 12y ago
  Isn't this true for any human organization? Whether it's a corporation, LLC, startup, non-profit, government, etc.
  - vdaniuk 12y ago
    There are some similarities, but there are even more differences. LLCs and startups are usually much smaller and their behaviour as a collectively entitity is much more dependent on the personal quirks of the founders/top management. Nonprofits and governments are not driven by profit as a main motive and are in their own category.
tomjen3 12y ago
>Phone calls from large companies are extremely bad. That means they don't want things in writing. It is 2015. You can download a bunch of apps from the play store that automatically record your phone calls. Phone calls are as much "in writing" as emails, perhaps more so as they are much more difficult to fake.
- skuhn 12y ago
  You cannot record your phone calls without permission from the other person in a two party consent state (such as California).
  - pen2l 12y ago
    An eeeeeexcellent reason to have non-primitive phone line systems. Do the "this call may be recorded for quality and assurance purposes yada yada" at the beginning before being hooked to a person on your side. You can make it sound unremarkable enough that they might not even notice it if you do it well enough. Remember, Facebook et al. is the furthest thing from your friend, whether you're a facebook user or another thing in its ecosystem. Put your game face on when approaching or being approached by these companies. Document everything, because they will most likely end up f'ing you over. edit: recording phone calls isn't just really good to protect yourself Facebook, it's also good for a whole array of other reasons. It captures synchronous information to keep note-taking easy, gives you a chance to look into everything a client requested/complained about and when when they brought it up, etc. tl;dr: get a proper phone system with recording abilities installed asap
  - toomuchtodo 12y ago
    Don't accept business calls from someone unwilling to allow you to record it?
    - poker_face 12y ago
      This is just not realistic - in business if you tell everyone you're taping them when they call you, nobody is going to talk to you. You go out of business if nobody talks to you. In any case, this discussion about phone calls is a side-show. If Twitter is going to cut you off from their API, you can't avoid that by not picking up their calls.
georgemcbay 12y ago
Large companies don't hate you, they are simply (like "nature" or the universe) indifferent towards your well-being or continued existence... which is perfectly understandable, really. And, yes, this fact should really give pause to people who are thinking about basing an entire company around an API, portal or other service that is 100% controlled by a large company. Any such dependency should be seen as the huge risk factor that it is. And while innocent bystanders do get whacked from time-to-time, I find that more often than not when big companies change their TOS in ways that impact other companies, there's actually a pretty decent reason behind the changes. Facebook feeds got extremely spammy around the Zynga days, they are much better now (tolerable, at least, though still far from perfect). Not sure what your google story is, but I've heard lots of startup folks complain about changes google has made to their algorithms or TOS policies that hurt them only to visit their sites or look at their apps and see that they were actually pretty spammy and really deserved the deranking.
- poker_face 12y ago
  What I don't understand is how come this dude repeated the same mistake four times in a row? Maybe switch fields - that's a good way to break out of a destructive pattern.
  - AznHisoka 12y ago
    On the contrary, I think this just goes to show how challenging it is to build a business that is 100% defensible, and doesn't rely on another platform/company. Building an app? OK, better hope it doesn't violate Apple's TOS. Building a consumer website? OK, better hope Google's next update doesn't affect you negatively. Building a Buffer competitor? OK, better hope Twitter doesn't ban you from their API
  - jusben1369 12y ago
    I upvoted you because it is a legitimate question (at least the first sentence)
    - poker_face 12y ago

harperlee 12y ago

Honest question, because I'm neiher american nor familiar with their common law: Let's call the company that called us [redacted] Does that really hold water, legally speaking? Because we all know what are you implying...

ransom1538 12y ago
Thanks removed.
- mcintyre1994 12y ago
  FYI you haven't edited the dupe post (if you can), I assume it's the same as the original here.
  - dang 12y ago
    Since it was a duplicate anyway, we'll delete it.
raverbashing 12y ago
If you think this is inappropriate you shouldn't be quoting it
- harperlee 12y ago
  You are completely right, I didn't think that the parent would delete it (it was a honest question, really). But I can't edit it now. Perhaps someone from HN can?
  - dang 12y ago
    Ok, we redacted that bit.
    - harperlee 12y ago
      Thank you!

LargeCompanies 12y ago

Indeed they hate you and just may treat you like a dog too. Here you have worked and toiled away for years trying to get your big break. Finally it comes and you get a phone call or invited out to the valley to demo/talk about selling your blood, sweat and tears. You then realize your just getting stomped on and they may have just stolen all your hard work. You think ...huh this is how it goes for the little guy innovator against this huge tech company you held in such high regard. The tech world is not a extremely friendly place to even a ton of Caucasian guys(it's all about who you know/who is behind you), yet alone to any person who isn't!

vdaniuk 12y ago

Corps don't hate you, they use and plunder, their plans executed with a blind determination of a hivemind, no emotions involved(usually). They are borg, controlled by their drive for expansion. If you can be a valuable ally against competing borg or help them consolidate a fragmented market, your business will flourish until you are no longer needed. These are the rules of the game.

bduerst 12y ago
Isn't this true for any human organization? Whether it's a corporation, LLC, startup, non-profit, government, etc.
- vdaniuk 12y ago
  There are some similarities, but there are even more differences. LLCs and startups are usually much smaller and their behaviour as a collectively entitity is much more dependent on the personal quirks of the founders/top management. Nonprofits and governments are not driven by profit as a main motive and are in their own category.

tomjen3 12y ago

>Phone calls from large companies are extremely bad. That means they don't want things in writing. It is 2015. You can download a bunch of apps from the play store that automatically record your phone calls. Phone calls are as much "in writing" as emails, perhaps more so as they are much more difficult to fake.

skuhn 12y ago
You cannot record your phone calls without permission from the other person in a two party consent state (such as California).
- pen2l 12y ago
  An eeeeeexcellent reason to have non-primitive phone line systems. Do the "this call may be recorded for quality and assurance purposes yada yada" at the beginning before being hooked to a person on your side. You can make it sound unremarkable enough that they might not even notice it if you do it well enough. Remember, Facebook et al. is the furthest thing from your friend, whether you're a facebook user or another thing in its ecosystem. Put your game face on when approaching or being approached by these companies. Document everything, because they will most likely end up f'ing you over. edit: recording phone calls isn't just really good to protect yourself Facebook, it's also good for a whole array of other reasons. It captures synchronous information to keep note-taking easy, gives you a chance to look into everything a client requested/complained about and when when they brought it up, etc. tl;dr: get a proper phone system with recording abilities installed asap
- toomuchtodo 12y ago
  Don't accept business calls from someone unwilling to allow you to record it?
  - poker_face 12y ago
    This is just not realistic - in business if you tell everyone you're taping them when they call you, nobody is going to talk to you. You go out of business if nobody talks to you. In any case, this discussion about phone calls is a side-show. If Twitter is going to cut you off from their API, you can't avoid that by not picking up their calls.

georgemcbay 12y ago

Large companies don't hate you, they are simply (like "nature" or the universe) indifferent towards your well-being or continued existence... which is perfectly understandable, really. And, yes, this fact should really give pause to people who are thinking about basing an entire company around an API, portal or other service that is 100% controlled by a large company. Any such dependency should be seen as the huge risk factor that it is. And while innocent bystanders do get whacked from time-to-time, I find that more often than not when big companies change their TOS in ways that impact other companies, there's actually a pretty decent reason behind the changes. Facebook feeds got extremely spammy around the Zynga days, they are much better now (tolerable, at least, though still far from perfect). Not sure what your google story is, but I've heard lots of startup folks complain about changes google has made to their algorithms or TOS policies that hurt them only to visit their sites or look at their apps and see that they were actually pretty spammy and really deserved the deranking.

poker_face 12y ago
What I don't understand is how come this dude repeated the same mistake four times in a row? Maybe switch fields - that's a good way to break out of a destructive pattern.
- AznHisoka 12y ago
  On the contrary, I think this just goes to show how challenging it is to build a business that is 100% defensible, and doesn't rely on another platform/company. Building an app? OK, better hope it doesn't violate Apple's TOS. Building a consumer website? OK, better hope Google's next update doesn't affect you negatively. Building a Buffer competitor? OK, better hope Twitter doesn't ban you from their API
- jusben1369 12y ago
  I upvoted you because it is a legitimate question (at least the first sentence)
  - poker_face 12y ago