4 ms·

How is Dijsselbloem even remotely close to being right-wing?

IkmoIkmo 12y ago
Yeah, kind of nonsense. He's part of the Labour party here, definitely not right wing. It's true that Labour in Europe made a big swing towards right. It's now more often firmly at the centre, instead of left of centre, on a host of economic issues. And so you could then say he's rightish, especially in his European position as opposed to his Party position in the Netherlands... but then you can throw a lot of terms out of the window and it becomes impossible to label anything anymore. For example, in Europe we tend to consider most Democrats to be Rightish-Wing, and consider most Republicans just 'way out there', the notion that democrats are leftist is kind of ridiculous here. Left would be the Green Party for example. But we call them left because in the spectrum of dem/reps in the US, they're relatively left. We could say they're both 'right' and then come up with other differentiating words to describe em, but it never really catches on... Same with Labour on a national level, Dijsselbloem is part of labour and labour is generally left in the political spectrum of a country, for what it's worth.
- _delirium 12y ago
  On monetary issues I think it's fair to say that many European center-left finance ministers (excluding perhaps French ones) are rather towards the right, at least since the 1990s. On fiscal policy center-left European governments are left-ish, supporting high taxation which pays for a social welfare state. But when compared to Americans on monetary policy, they tend to have positions closer to the Republican Party than to the Democratic Party, closer to orthodox neoliberal views (Milton Friedman, etc.) than to Keynesian or MMT style views regarding proper management of government debt, business cycles, and recessions. Which I think is one of the disconnects: even when Varoufakis advocates pretty mainstream Keynesianism that would be center-left in the U.S., he's perceived as being quite far left. (It doesn't help that he occasionally describes himself as "Marxist", but his actual proposals bear a lot more resemblance to Keynesian economics than Marxian economics.)
  - digi_owl 12y ago
    The term you are looking for is neoliberalism. A set of thinking that has spread across Europe since Thatcher did her union busting. Unless you are on the fringe left of parties, you adhere more or less fervently to the idea that a minimal government that buy services from private companies is the way to do things. It is "utility maximizing" taken to the level of religion. This has lead to ever more measurements and goals in government, often referred to as New Public Management.
    - _delirium 12y ago
      Yeah, I edited that in to make it clearer. This is one odd thing about Europe: in some ways it is left of the US, but in other ways quite right of the US. To take an example I'm familiar with in academia (I've worked in both American and Danish universities), Danish universities are more progressive in one sense: there is no tuition, education is free and universal. But in return, they are also much more shamelessly neoliberal about the goal of the university: the goal of universities is to increase the Danish GDP. Both their educational and research activities are measured by the extent to which they "create value for Denmark". That view exists in the US too, but only the right wing really buys into it full stop, whereas in Denmark even the Social Democrats hold it, and have recently initiated a set of university reforms on that basis.
      - digi_owl 12y ago
        I guess the thing to consider is that at some point the European left adopted the idea that educating society was the way to the leftist dream of a egalitarian society. Problem is that most of the leftist parties at that time were run by people that had little to no actual worker background, and the situation has since become ever more solidified. End result is a quiet disdain for people that choose industry or service work over a university degree.

Yeah, kind of nonsense. He's part of the Labour party here, definitely not right wing. It's true that Labour in Europe made a big swing towards right. It's now more often firmly at the centre, instead of left of centre, on a host of economic issues. And so you could then say he's rightish, especially in his European position as opposed to his Party position in the Netherlands... but then you can throw a lot of terms out of the window and it becomes impossible to label anything anymore. For example, in Europe we tend to consider most Democrats to be Rightish-Wing, and consider most Republicans just 'way out there', the notion that democrats are leftist is kind of ridiculous here. Left would be the Green Party for example. But we call them left because in the spectrum of dem/reps in the US, they're relatively left. We could say they're both 'right' and then come up with other differentiating words to describe em, but it never really catches on... Same with Labour on a national level, Dijsselbloem is part of labour and labour is generally left in the political spectrum of a country, for what it's worth.

_delirium 12y ago
On monetary issues I think it's fair to say that many European center-left finance ministers (excluding perhaps French ones) are rather towards the right, at least since the 1990s. On fiscal policy center-left European governments are left-ish, supporting high taxation which pays for a social welfare state. But when compared to Americans on monetary policy, they tend to have positions closer to the Republican Party than to the Democratic Party, closer to orthodox neoliberal views (Milton Friedman, etc.) than to Keynesian or MMT style views regarding proper management of government debt, business cycles, and recessions. Which I think is one of the disconnects: even when Varoufakis advocates pretty mainstream Keynesianism that would be center-left in the U.S., he's perceived as being quite far left. (It doesn't help that he occasionally describes himself as "Marxist", but his actual proposals bear a lot more resemblance to Keynesian economics than Marxian economics.)
- digi_owl 12y ago
  The term you are looking for is neoliberalism. A set of thinking that has spread across Europe since Thatcher did her union busting. Unless you are on the fringe left of parties, you adhere more or less fervently to the idea that a minimal government that buy services from private companies is the way to do things. It is "utility maximizing" taken to the level of religion. This has lead to ever more measurements and goals in government, often referred to as New Public Management.
  - _delirium 12y ago
    Yeah, I edited that in to make it clearer. This is one odd thing about Europe: in some ways it is left of the US, but in other ways quite right of the US. To take an example I'm familiar with in academia (I've worked in both American and Danish universities), Danish universities are more progressive in one sense: there is no tuition, education is free and universal. But in return, they are also much more shamelessly neoliberal about the goal of the university: the goal of universities is to increase the Danish GDP. Both their educational and research activities are measured by the extent to which they "create value for Denmark". That view exists in the US too, but only the right wing really buys into it full stop, whereas in Denmark even the Social Democrats hold it, and have recently initiated a set of university reforms on that basis.
    - digi_owl 12y ago
      I guess the thing to consider is that at some point the European left adopted the idea that educating society was the way to the leftist dream of a egalitarian society. Problem is that most of the leftist parties at that time were run by people that had little to no actual worker background, and the situation has since become ever more solidified. End result is a quiet disdain for people that choose industry or service work over a university degree.