3 ms·

Maybe you should consider that, as a grey hair, one of the skills you should have picked up along the way is how to behave when talking to a VP.

switch_bro 12y ago
My reading is that he wasn't laughing at her plan intentionally. Her plan was so bad that he thought she was joking, and he tried to be polite by laughing at the VP's joke. There's nothing wrong with him. As I wrote above, as the brain ages, you get more experience and depth and foresight. The problem is that the decisions that use these abilities don't belong to programmers - they belong to managers (in this case the VP). This is one of the main recipes for perennial frustration - be an older programmer trying to act like a manager from the bottom of the hierarchy.
cookiecaper 12y ago
The interesting thing about engineers is that they have very little tolerance for these destructive social shenanigans. Courtesy and politeness are one thing, but ignoring such a flagrantly flawed plan goes beyond courtesy and into professional negligence. When empirical thought is your bread and butter, as it is in the case of software developers, it's hard to see why you should have to acquiesce to the VP's ego. If one intentionally stays off the political tracks, there really is no reason they should have to play unreasonable political games. Workplaces would be much more efficient if we accepted, or at least heard, the advice of the people who get paid for their expertise, instead of cowering in fear that we may damage the ego of some fragile soul who ended up in management because they were not competent to do any real work directly.
- shanusmagnus 12y ago
  YMMV, but what one perceives as 'unreasonable political games' is highly personality-dependent. Most people have some set of behaviors that they find appropriate in some situations but not in others. For instance, wearing sweatpants to a wedding is generally frowned upon, for reasons that have little to do with their ability to maintain the body at a reasonable operating temperature. You can wear them anyway, but then you get to face the social consequences of doing so. It's true that workplaces would be a lot more efficient under the regime you describe. It's also true that if my aunt had a dick she'd be my uncle. I'm suggesting that it might be a good idea for engineers to do the same thing as everybody else in the world and try to figure out when to wear sweatpants.
  - cookiecaper 12y ago
    This is not anywhere near as socially tone-deaf as "wearing sweatpants to a wedding" -- it's more like showing up in a tux when everyone else caught the note on the invite "ironic dress only, please wear trash". The situation the parent described was the presentation of a plan of complete absurdity, which he advised against after realizing it was serious. I agree with you that developers would be well-served by making a stronger effort to play along with the superficial niceties of corporate politics, but like I said, this transcends that and gets into a professional duty to advise against. If the workplace is so corrupt that reasonable opposition to a blatantly silly implementation plan can only result in the correct subordinate getting shuffled around and possibly fired, it's a liability for professionals to continue employment there.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- crististm 12y ago
  I am now convinced that an idiot in a management position is unable to raise himself above the level of idiocy he is in - by any means. By definition, he should have to _listen_ and _weigh_ the facts being reported to him, not only to filter out the hidden agendas, but to also see all the facets of reality. Doing this would automatically exclude him from the idiots group. Unfortunately most of management ones will not tolerate unaligned lower ranks and are unable to utter the words "he may have a point" to themselves and regroup and refocus. Instead they will do whatever is necessary to remove the opposition. See the Challenger for recent high profile examples.
  - sukilot 12y ago
    Did you mean "or" not "for", or are you an old fogey who forgot that most of HN wasn't yet born when Challenger exploded?
    - crististm 12y ago
      You made my day. I meant "for" but indeed time is relative. I was 11 at the time and Challenger event is "recent" to me even now. Maybe because I was into stars and rockets and a friend showed me a newspaper cut with Challenger launch a year before or so.
federico3 12y ago
Blaming the victim.

switch_bro 12y ago

My reading is that he wasn't laughing at her plan intentionally. Her plan was so bad that he thought she was joking, and he tried to be polite by laughing at the VP's joke. There's nothing wrong with him. As I wrote above, as the brain ages, you get more experience and depth and foresight. The problem is that the decisions that use these abilities don't belong to programmers - they belong to managers (in this case the VP). This is one of the main recipes for perennial frustration - be an older programmer trying to act like a manager from the bottom of the hierarchy.

cookiecaper 12y ago

The interesting thing about engineers is that they have very little tolerance for these destructive social shenanigans. Courtesy and politeness are one thing, but ignoring such a flagrantly flawed plan goes beyond courtesy and into professional negligence. When empirical thought is your bread and butter, as it is in the case of software developers, it's hard to see why you should have to acquiesce to the VP's ego. If one intentionally stays off the political tracks, there really is no reason they should have to play unreasonable political games. Workplaces would be much more efficient if we accepted, or at least heard, the advice of the people who get paid for their expertise, instead of cowering in fear that we may damage the ego of some fragile soul who ended up in management because they were not competent to do any real work directly.

shanusmagnus 12y ago
YMMV, but what one perceives as 'unreasonable political games' is highly personality-dependent. Most people have some set of behaviors that they find appropriate in some situations but not in others. For instance, wearing sweatpants to a wedding is generally frowned upon, for reasons that have little to do with their ability to maintain the body at a reasonable operating temperature. You can wear them anyway, but then you get to face the social consequences of doing so. It's true that workplaces would be a lot more efficient under the regime you describe. It's also true that if my aunt had a dick she'd be my uncle. I'm suggesting that it might be a good idea for engineers to do the same thing as everybody else in the world and try to figure out when to wear sweatpants.
- cookiecaper 12y ago
  This is not anywhere near as socially tone-deaf as "wearing sweatpants to a wedding" -- it's more like showing up in a tux when everyone else caught the note on the invite "ironic dress only, please wear trash". The situation the parent described was the presentation of a plan of complete absurdity, which he advised against after realizing it was serious. I agree with you that developers would be well-served by making a stronger effort to play along with the superficial niceties of corporate politics, but like I said, this transcends that and gets into a professional duty to advise against. If the workplace is so corrupt that reasonable opposition to a blatantly silly implementation plan can only result in the correct subordinate getting shuffled around and possibly fired, it's a liability for professionals to continue employment there.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
crististm 12y ago
I am now convinced that an idiot in a management position is unable to raise himself above the level of idiocy he is in - by any means. By definition, he should have to _listen_ and _weigh_ the facts being reported to him, not only to filter out the hidden agendas, but to also see all the facets of reality. Doing this would automatically exclude him from the idiots group. Unfortunately most of management ones will not tolerate unaligned lower ranks and are unable to utter the words "he may have a point" to themselves and regroup and refocus. Instead they will do whatever is necessary to remove the opposition. See the Challenger for recent high profile examples.
- sukilot 12y ago
  Did you mean "or" not "for", or are you an old fogey who forgot that most of HN wasn't yet born when Challenger exploded?
  - crististm 12y ago
    You made my day. I meant "for" but indeed time is relative. I was 11 at the time and Challenger event is "recent" to me even now. Maybe because I was into stars and rockets and a friend showed me a newspaper cut with Challenger launch a year before or so.

federico3 12y ago

Blaming the victim.