5 ms·

You mean, the Greeks want Northern/Eastern Europe to pay for Greek vote buying?

danmaz74 12y ago
Why "Nothern/Eastern" Europe? Italy for example contributed 40 billion of the 240 billions that were used for the bailout so far.
- peterfirefly 12y ago
  Very good question. Mostly because Italy (and France) itself is in danger. Do we think the money really is there if it is needed? And that it won't push Italy (and France) over the brink?
  - danmaz74 12y ago
    I just don't like bundling the "north" vs "south" of the EU. Yes Italy and Spain were in dangerous waters if you looked at the interest rate differentials with Germany, but they paid their quota of the bailout like everybody else - so they saved Greece as much as everybody else. Actually, they contributed much more than the new North-Eastern EU states, which have a much lower GDP (both total and per capita).
    - peterfirefly 12y ago
      But there is a very real North/South divide in the way the economies are structured and in societal norms (trust in others, corruption, tax evasion, clientelism). The PIIGS acronym wasn't conjured out of free air (Ireland seems over the worst, so we are down to PIGS now). Doesn't it piss you off, btw, that Eastern European countries with a poorer population than Greece participated in the Greek bailout but the Greeks still think they are entitled to more?
      - danmaz74 12y ago
        Are you trying to tell me that countries from the former Soviet block are corruption free? In my own experience they are much more corrupted than Italy; there is no correlation between corruption and latitude. Regarding entitlement from some Greeks, I agree. But you should keep in mind the total net from/to the EU: all those poorer countries, even with the bailout, are getting much more from the EU than they are giving (as it should be).
        peterfirefly 12y ago
        > Are you trying to tell me that countries from the former Soviet block are corruption free? Not at all! But, yes, there /is/ a correlation between corruption and latitude.
        ptaipale 12y ago
        > Are you trying to tell me that countries from the former Soviet block are corruption free? I don't see him saying that. I see him saying that countries of the former Soviet block have poorer population than Greece [0] but are subsidizing it. Also as nations they are poorer, though their GDP has climbed to the same level. They soon will be richer than Greece. In 1990, they were still much poorer, as they were still under Soviet occupation and influence, while Greece had been a member of EEC/EC for ten years. Greece is lagging behind due to its sclerotic economy and clientelism of previous power parties, and Syriza seems to revert to the same. [0] http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=BLI http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=BLI
        danmaz74 12y ago
        I quote: > But there is a very real North/South divide in the way the economies are structured and in societal norms (trust in others, corruption, tax evasion, clientelism) This is very poor simplifcation, and pretty offensive too.
        ptaipale 12y ago
        It might be offensive, but is it untrue? Note that we're not saying things about people as individuals. We're talking about national cultures, stereotypes and statistical averages. "Where trust is high, crime and corruption are low". http://www.pewglobal.org/2008/04/15/where-trust-is-high-crime-and-corruption-are-low/ http://www.pewglobal.org/2008/04/15/where-trust-is-high-crim... Regarding trust, below is one source for how people see it. Look at the European map. There's a bit of north/south divide (with Italy being somewhat north). http://www.jdsurvey.net/jds/jdsurveyActualidad.jsp?Idioma=I&SeccionTexto=0404&NOID=104 http://www.jdsurvey.net/jds/jdsurveyActualidad.jsp?Idioma=I&... This is not the same as amount of corruption (note how high China and Saudi Arabia are in the "most people can be trusted" index, while they don't rate as well in corruption indexes). Here's the Transparency's Corruption index map: https://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results https://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results Crime maps are many but what I can find quickly are not incompatible with this generalisation either: http://www.numbeo.com/crime/gmaps_rankings_country.jsp http://www.numbeo.com/crime/gmaps_rankings_country.jsp
biehl 12y ago
Nope. I mean Our Eurozone growth model, [...] relied heavily on private, bank-driven, vendor-financing for the net exports of the surplus nations. [...]. The end result was a transfer of potential losses from the banks’ books onto Europe’s taxpayers in a manner that placed most of the burden of adjustment on the crisis countries that could least bear it. http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/03/15/presenting-an-agenda-for-europe-at-ambrosetti-lake-como-14th-march-2015 http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/03/15/presenting-an-agenda-fo... The money was already gone when we allowed bankers to handle it and invest it in high-risk projects like greek and spanish real-estate etc. And if we don't place the blame where it is due (with the bankers) then they will find another bubble to waste our money with another time. [edit: reply moved to proper place]

Why "Nothern/Eastern" Europe? Italy for example contributed 40 billion of the 240 billions that were used for the bailout so far.

peterfirefly 12y ago
Very good question. Mostly because Italy (and France) itself is in danger. Do we think the money really is there if it is needed? And that it won't push Italy (and France) over the brink?
- danmaz74 12y ago
  I just don't like bundling the "north" vs "south" of the EU. Yes Italy and Spain were in dangerous waters if you looked at the interest rate differentials with Germany, but they paid their quota of the bailout like everybody else - so they saved Greece as much as everybody else. Actually, they contributed much more than the new North-Eastern EU states, which have a much lower GDP (both total and per capita).
  - peterfirefly 12y ago
    But there is a very real North/South divide in the way the economies are structured and in societal norms (trust in others, corruption, tax evasion, clientelism). The PIIGS acronym wasn't conjured out of free air (Ireland seems over the worst, so we are down to PIGS now). Doesn't it piss you off, btw, that Eastern European countries with a poorer population than Greece participated in the Greek bailout but the Greeks still think they are entitled to more?
    - danmaz74 12y ago
      Are you trying to tell me that countries from the former Soviet block are corruption free? In my own experience they are much more corrupted than Italy; there is no correlation between corruption and latitude. Regarding entitlement from some Greeks, I agree. But you should keep in mind the total net from/to the EU: all those poorer countries, even with the bailout, are getting much more from the EU than they are giving (as it should be).
      - peterfirefly 12y ago
        > Are you trying to tell me that countries from the former Soviet block are corruption free? Not at all! But, yes, there /is/ a correlation between corruption and latitude.
      - ptaipale 12y ago
        > Are you trying to tell me that countries from the former Soviet block are corruption free? I don't see him saying that. I see him saying that countries of the former Soviet block have poorer population than Greece [0] but are subsidizing it. Also as nations they are poorer, though their GDP has climbed to the same level. They soon will be richer than Greece. In 1990, they were still much poorer, as they were still under Soviet occupation and influence, while Greece had been a member of EEC/EC for ten years. Greece is lagging behind due to its sclerotic economy and clientelism of previous power parties, and Syriza seems to revert to the same. [0] http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=BLI http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=BLI
        danmaz74 12y ago
        I quote: > But there is a very real North/South divide in the way the economies are structured and in societal norms (trust in others, corruption, tax evasion, clientelism) This is very poor simplifcation, and pretty offensive too.
        ptaipale 12y ago
        It might be offensive, but is it untrue? Note that we're not saying things about people as individuals. We're talking about national cultures, stereotypes and statistical averages. "Where trust is high, crime and corruption are low". http://www.pewglobal.org/2008/04/15/where-trust-is-high-crime-and-corruption-are-low/ http://www.pewglobal.org/2008/04/15/where-trust-is-high-crim... Regarding trust, below is one source for how people see it. Look at the European map. There's a bit of north/south divide (with Italy being somewhat north). http://www.jdsurvey.net/jds/jdsurveyActualidad.jsp?Idioma=I&SeccionTexto=0404&NOID=104 http://www.jdsurvey.net/jds/jdsurveyActualidad.jsp?Idioma=I&... This is not the same as amount of corruption (note how high China and Saudi Arabia are in the "most people can be trusted" index, while they don't rate as well in corruption indexes). Here's the Transparency's Corruption index map: https://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results https://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results Crime maps are many but what I can find quickly are not incompatible with this generalisation either: http://www.numbeo.com/crime/gmaps_rankings_country.jsp http://www.numbeo.com/crime/gmaps_rankings_country.jsp

biehl 12y ago

Nope. I mean Our Eurozone growth model, [...] relied heavily on private, bank-driven, vendor-financing for the net exports of the surplus nations. [...]. The end result was a transfer of potential losses from the banks’ books onto Europe’s taxpayers in a manner that placed most of the burden of adjustment on the crisis countries that could least bear it. http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/03/15/presenting-an-agenda-for-europe-at-ambrosetti-lake-como-14th-march-2015 http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/03/15/presenting-an-agenda-fo... The money was already gone when we allowed bankers to handle it and invest it in high-risk projects like greek and spanish real-estate etc. And if we don't place the blame where it is due (with the bankers) then they will find another bubble to waste our money with another time. [edit: reply moved to proper place]