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I'm sure everyone on HN that is young enough to have had computers while in highschool has gone through this bullshit of fighting tech-illiterate adults what co

I'm sure everyone on HN that is young enough to have had computers while in highschool has gone through this bullshit of fighting tech-illiterate adults what constitutes using a computer. Most of them are not aware that there are productive ways to use computers outside of Microsoft Office and IE. I shit you not, I used to get logged off by the dumbass librarian for opening Idle and playing with python. White on black text means I must have been up to no good. It's so clear to me that this kid actually is a hacker. Just in the Stallman sense of the word. I suspect he's just like any of us were at his age-- completely and utterly in love with computers. He was suspended before from using computers, and he found a way around it. You know what that says to me? He's got the knack.[1] Highschool is a waste of this guys time. We should have him in a CS program somewhere. Instead, he's got a few more years of hell. What bothers me is the heavy handedness of this. He had been suspended for 3 days before. He's suspended now for 10 days. He's going to have to go to court. This has effects on this young mans life that we may not have a huge appreciation for. The result might culminate as a slip in his grades. It might be as much as having to transfer schools and becoming a social outcast. It might be the stress it places on his relationship with his parents, which shamefully have to show up to court. But the point is this is a smart kid that is being punished for existing in a fucked up education system, and his future success in that system is at stake. And most unfortunately, his success in that system will dictate what college he gets into, what job he gets, and what his life will be. That bothers me so much. I wish I could reach out, tell his parents to not punish him, and encourage him to get his GED and not let this ruin his life. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60P1xG32Feo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60P1xG32Feo

libraryatnight 12y ago
I agree. It seems reasonable to punish within the school system - a detention, something along those lines, but legal action feels ridiculous. Pranks and things of this nature are commonplace at that age, and computers are a modern vehicle for those pranks.
- Symbiote 12y ago
  I found the administrator password for my school's NT network, in 1997 or so. It was "changeme". I think the only thing I used it for was to re-enable right clicking in Windows for my user account. (It was blocked, I don't know why.) Many months later, another boy changed the password. I think he got detention, and probably a ban from using the computers outside lessons.
smt88 12y ago
I agree that the way they treated this kid is insane, but you seem to have invented a persona for him that wasn't supported by the article at all. There's no indication that he particularly likes computers, let alone that he's "completely and utterly in love with them". He basically just noticed that the IT department had stupid password policies and messed around on other people's accounts. He himself could be mostly tech-illiterate. There's also no evidence that high school is a waste of this kid's time. If he's doing stupid, immature shit like this, he does need a structured environment where he has good role models. This particular high school may not be the right one for him, but he does need one. And he wasn't suspended before for using the computers. He was suspended for getting into other people's accounts.
- nickysielicki 12y ago
  > "The student had previously been suspended three days from school for similarly accessing computers without permission." To me, that says he used a computer when he was otherwise banned from it. And that's where I'm getting this persona from. Yeah, I'm reading into it, and you're right to call me out on this. I still think he's probably close to what I'm describing, and I'm sure he's wanting to study compsci at some level.
  - emerongi 12y ago
    You're reading waaay into it. We used to do stupid stuff like this all the time. Kids who never had any interest in computers (and neither do today) used to pull pranks like this. It's just what kids do. Nothing else. Never in a million years can you stop kids from pulling pranks. Nobody in my school touched the teachers' computers though. A lot of us knew the passwords for many of their computers, but those were sacred. The "pranks" some of us pulled were way worse than what the kid in the article did though.
- danneu 12y ago
  But it looks like everyone's been doing it. > But Green, interviewed at home, said students would often > log into the administrative account to screen-share with > their friends. They'd use the school computers' cameras > to see each other, he said. Maybe it's no big deal until a pic of two men kissing gets involved.
cm2187 12y ago
I agree that this is a bit heavy handed but I do not believe that we should advertise hacking into other people computers (nevermind how dumm is their protection) as being a venial activity. Most hackers who write spam bots, viruses, etc, wouldn't go in a street and beat up an old woman randomly. They are not really bad ass criminals. But somehow they think that it's OK to infect thousands of machines. Well it's not. They are committing crime and harm just because they can. And I think the sentiment that if a crime is committed electronically then it doesn't really matter is an attitude that we need to change.
- nickysielicki 12y ago
  He didn't harm anyone. He even had opportunity to do malicious things like change grades or steal standardized tests, and did not. It was all just for kicks. Downvote me if you will but I truly support what this kid did. Maybe I'm still immature, or maybe I see a lot of him in me, but I honestly think it's hilarious and I don't care what lessons he is or isn't learning out of this ordeal.
  - cm2187 12y ago
    Well technically, if the teacher was found with pornography on his school computer and the school believed he downloaded it, he could certainly have been fired, and that may well have been the intention of the kid. I am not saying he should go to jail or anything heavy handed like that but a punishment is certainly relevant. But in general, we are creating sociopaths if we do not set a moral barrier in hacking into other people machines.
    - ux-app 12y ago
      > he could certainly have been fired not only fired. In Australia, teachers must be centrally registered to enter the classroom. An accusation such as this which was actually upheld would disqualify them from gaining registration across Australia, effectively nuking their career from orbit. I assume similar registration requirements exist in the US.
    - 12y ago
ux-app 12y ago
I'll preface this by saying that the felony aspect of this case, if accurate, is way out of proportion. I don't know how the US system works, but here in Australia it is very unlikely for the police to be called in for a matter such as this one. > It's so clear to me that this kid actually is a hacker. Just in the Stallman sense of the word. I suspect he's just like any of us were at his age-- completely and utterly in love with computers. He was suspended before from using computers, and he found a way around it. Highschool is a waste of this guys time. We should have him in a CS program somewhere. Instead, he's got a few more years of hell. This is pure speculation on your part. He could be the next, up and coming, Wozniak, or more likely, he is an otherwise unremarkable trouble maker. As a male high school teacher I am acutely aware of the potentially career ending issues that can come about in my usual day-to-day work. We as teachers: 1. Are never in a room alone with a student 2. Are very careful about what we say/do around students. No curse words even among staff in the yard. 3. No suggestive language. Limited "joking around" etc. As a teacher I am constantly on the defensive. This is because I have a job that puts me in a trusted position of power working with other people's children. The onus is on me for my actions to be above reproach at all times. The amount of damage that could be inflicted on a teacher by a malicious student through the use of their system account makes me shudder. A truly malicious student could utterly destroy a teacher's reputation and ability to be re-hired by accessing illegal web material, sending inappropriate emails etc. We work very hard to maintain a spotless reputation. Just the accusation of wrongdoing could do great harm to a teacher's standing. Your characterization of this student as some gifted hacker is also more than likely wrong. In the past 10 years of teaching I've encountered countless cases of otherwise utterly unremarkable students who were obsessed with keyloggers and "programming" which amounted to little more that script kiddy BS. The truly gifted students were far less interested in stealing passwords than the students looking for a quick way to hack the system and cause grief/harm. > But the point is this is a smart kid that is being punished for existing in a fucked up education system I didn't see any indication that this was a "smart kid". Maybe he was. Shoulder surfing his teacher to steal their password doesn't indicate a high level of intelligence. The fact that the school had a dumb password policy is tangential. At my school we have a comprehensive computer ethics component to the curriculum where we do talk about the criminality of unauthorized computer access. Sounds like this student didn't get the message after his first suspension. A felony is ridiculous, but part of a well rounded education must involve teaching students that this type of computer access will get you thrown in prison as an adult.

libraryatnight 12y ago

I agree. It seems reasonable to punish within the school system - a detention, something along those lines, but legal action feels ridiculous. Pranks and things of this nature are commonplace at that age, and computers are a modern vehicle for those pranks.

Symbiote 12y ago
I found the administrator password for my school's NT network, in 1997 or so. It was "changeme". I think the only thing I used it for was to re-enable right clicking in Windows for my user account. (It was blocked, I don't know why.) Many months later, another boy changed the password. I think he got detention, and probably a ban from using the computers outside lessons.

smt88 12y ago

I agree that the way they treated this kid is insane, but you seem to have invented a persona for him that wasn't supported by the article at all. There's no indication that he particularly likes computers, let alone that he's "completely and utterly in love with them". He basically just noticed that the IT department had stupid password policies and messed around on other people's accounts. He himself could be mostly tech-illiterate. There's also no evidence that high school is a waste of this kid's time. If he's doing stupid, immature shit like this, he does need a structured environment where he has good role models. This particular high school may not be the right one for him, but he does need one. And he wasn't suspended before for using the computers. He was suspended for getting into other people's accounts.

nickysielicki 12y ago
> "The student had previously been suspended three days from school for similarly accessing computers without permission." To me, that says he used a computer when he was otherwise banned from it. And that's where I'm getting this persona from. Yeah, I'm reading into it, and you're right to call me out on this. I still think he's probably close to what I'm describing, and I'm sure he's wanting to study compsci at some level.
- emerongi 12y ago
  You're reading waaay into it. We used to do stupid stuff like this all the time. Kids who never had any interest in computers (and neither do today) used to pull pranks like this. It's just what kids do. Nothing else. Never in a million years can you stop kids from pulling pranks. Nobody in my school touched the teachers' computers though. A lot of us knew the passwords for many of their computers, but those were sacred. The "pranks" some of us pulled were way worse than what the kid in the article did though.
danneu 12y ago
But it looks like everyone's been doing it. > But Green, interviewed at home, said students would often > log into the administrative account to screen-share with > their friends. They'd use the school computers' cameras > to see each other, he said. Maybe it's no big deal until a pic of two men kissing gets involved.

cm2187 12y ago

I agree that this is a bit heavy handed but I do not believe that we should advertise hacking into other people computers (nevermind how dumm is their protection) as being a venial activity. Most hackers who write spam bots, viruses, etc, wouldn't go in a street and beat up an old woman randomly. They are not really bad ass criminals. But somehow they think that it's OK to infect thousands of machines. Well it's not. They are committing crime and harm just because they can. And I think the sentiment that if a crime is committed electronically then it doesn't really matter is an attitude that we need to change.

nickysielicki 12y ago
He didn't harm anyone. He even had opportunity to do malicious things like change grades or steal standardized tests, and did not. It was all just for kicks. Downvote me if you will but I truly support what this kid did. Maybe I'm still immature, or maybe I see a lot of him in me, but I honestly think it's hilarious and I don't care what lessons he is or isn't learning out of this ordeal.
- cm2187 12y ago
  Well technically, if the teacher was found with pornography on his school computer and the school believed he downloaded it, he could certainly have been fired, and that may well have been the intention of the kid. I am not saying he should go to jail or anything heavy handed like that but a punishment is certainly relevant. But in general, we are creating sociopaths if we do not set a moral barrier in hacking into other people machines.
  - ux-app 12y ago
    > he could certainly have been fired not only fired. In Australia, teachers must be centrally registered to enter the classroom. An accusation such as this which was actually upheld would disqualify them from gaining registration across Australia, effectively nuking their career from orbit. I assume similar registration requirements exist in the US.
  - 12y ago

ux-app 12y ago

I'll preface this by saying that the felony aspect of this case, if accurate, is way out of proportion. I don't know how the US system works, but here in Australia it is very unlikely for the police to be called in for a matter such as this one. > It's so clear to me that this kid actually is a hacker. Just in the Stallman sense of the word. I suspect he's just like any of us were at his age-- completely and utterly in love with computers. He was suspended before from using computers, and he found a way around it. Highschool is a waste of this guys time. We should have him in a CS program somewhere. Instead, he's got a few more years of hell. This is pure speculation on your part. He could be the next, up and coming, Wozniak, or more likely, he is an otherwise unremarkable trouble maker. As a male high school teacher I am acutely aware of the potentially career ending issues that can come about in my usual day-to-day work. We as teachers: 1. Are never in a room alone with a student 2. Are very careful about what we say/do around students. No curse words even among staff in the yard. 3. No suggestive language. Limited "joking around" etc. As a teacher I am constantly on the defensive. This is because I have a job that puts me in a trusted position of power working with other people's children. The onus is on me for my actions to be above reproach at all times. The amount of damage that could be inflicted on a teacher by a malicious student through the use of their system account makes me shudder. A truly malicious student could utterly destroy a teacher's reputation and ability to be re-hired by accessing illegal web material, sending inappropriate emails etc. We work very hard to maintain a spotless reputation. Just the accusation of wrongdoing could do great harm to a teacher's standing. Your characterization of this student as some gifted hacker is also more than likely wrong. In the past 10 years of teaching I've encountered countless cases of otherwise utterly unremarkable students who were obsessed with keyloggers and "programming" which amounted to little more that script kiddy BS. The truly gifted students were far less interested in stealing passwords than the students looking for a quick way to hack the system and cause grief/harm. > But the point is this is a smart kid that is being punished for existing in a fucked up education system I didn't see any indication that this was a "smart kid". Maybe he was. Shoulder surfing his teacher to steal their password doesn't indicate a high level of intelligence. The fact that the school had a dumb password policy is tangential. At my school we have a comprehensive computer ethics component to the curriculum where we do talk about the criminality of unauthorized computer access. Sounds like this student didn't get the message after his first suspension. A felony is ridiculous, but part of a well rounded education must involve teaching students that this type of computer access will get you thrown in prison as an adult.