4 ms·

pay squash is why you should get out of field. engineering is the new proletariat, working at companies that rake in millions for pennies, while all managers ab

pay squash is why you should get out of field. engineering is the new proletariat, working at companies that rake in millions for pennies, while all managers above you get twice your pay just by organizing your time.

derrekl 12y ago
I don't see the managers above really making that much more. In fact I made less when I was team manager than half my team when I worked for a big public corp. The C level does make a lot more and/or the owners do but not all the management in between. With tech knowledge, though, you can escape the squash by starting your own business fairly easily. Not necessarily easy to create a successful business but easy to give it a shot.
- ryandrake 12y ago
  Yes, I believe this is more a more accurate assessment. I bet at most large and medium-sized tech companies, there's not a huge difference in compensation among rank-and-file employees (both individual contributors AND managers), with some managers earning more and some individual contributors making more. Probably no more than a 2X difference between what a junior engineer makes and what a senior engineering manager makes. However, there's going to be a HUGE gulf between what they make and what the senior executives make--anywhere between 3X and 300X. That's where you go to escape the "salary squash".
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
flexie 12y ago
Engineering is certainly not a proletariat. Engineers make more money than most professions and have more interesting jobs as well as lots of respect from other professions (I am not an engineer and I can tell you lots of people admire engineers). Also, many professions experience "pay squash". It's a myth that most managers make much more than programmers and that they "just" organize your time. Let's have a little bit of respect, not just for our own professions, but also for the people we work with.
- zo1 12y ago
  >"It's a myth that most managers make much more than programmers and that they "just" organize your time." Well, instead of just saying it's a myth and relying on averaged stats in the industry to satiate peoples' curiosity/jealousy, perhaps we should just all be more open about how much we all make. I.e. let's not make it taboo and "contractually-breaking" to discuss salaries openly. I know, yes, our current employment culture won't easily handle the strain of all coworkers knowing each others' and their superiors' salaries. But I have noticed the trend reversing slowly.
  - analog31 12y ago
    I suspect that sharing salary info will result in a gradual downward grind in salaries, as people are offended by seeing someone make what seems like big money for easy work. This has been the case with public school teacher salaries. I also think that salary data, with no corresponding ability data, will be meaningless.
    - Consultant32452 12y ago
      Salary data is already available at places like salary.com. You can see what people with your job title in your area are making for free.
- LoSboccacc 12y ago
  not when compared to all other profession that require a degree, constant lerning and are higly specialized (each enginering branch is not interchangeable, as well as within the same branch specializing in one area reduces your employment prospects in others) also, the majority of managers are not the one that are in charge, taking decisions, managing risks and settings directions; middle managers types are way more common. and I do respect those of them that work well, but they are so hard to find that I'll stand by the 'most' in 'just organize things'.
  - TheCoelacanth 12y ago
    What professions would those be? Law and medicine are probably the two most people are thinking of. Law does pay more for very successful people, but at the median it actually pays less. Doctors do get paid more, but they also spend a much longer time in training. The amount of time that most engineers spend in training is more in line with the amount of time that PAs spend in training.
Cupof37 12y ago
Let's not confuse engineering with programming. Most programmers aren't engineers (don't have engineering degrees, aren't comfortable with physics / calculus, etc.) Real engineers generally don't have these employment issues as they age. Programmers are 'engineers' in the same way that those with an MCSE are 'engineers' -- they operate a computer and employ a unique and useful skill-set.
- matthewmacleod 12y ago
  No true Scotsman. What's an engineer? I'd argue that people who studied software engineering for four or five years, then became software engineers, count as engineers. The fact that they don't have much insight into physics is wildly irrelevant.
  - shanusmagnus 12y ago
    Can you study SE for 4/5 years and not have taken the standard physics sequence? Or did you mean not at university?
  - ktran03 12y ago
    This varies with where you live. In Canada, a programmer is certainly not an engineer. And for Canadians going for a TN visa to work in the US, programmers are not allowed. Usually they try to slip in as 'Systems analysts' or craft the job/acceptance letter to fit under an engineering discipline. Software Engineers are engineers in Canada. A self taught programmer doing css/html is not an engineer. I'd simply qualify someone as an engineer, iff they successfully graduated from recognized university from an accredited Engineering program. And a second possible scenario is if someone's managed to pass all the Professional Engineer's examinations independently (rare).
    - fieryeagle 12y ago
      Not sure if one should favour 4 years in theory or 4 years in relevant work, for a programming position. For research, yes absolutely as it is straight carryover.

derrekl 12y ago

I don't see the managers above really making that much more. In fact I made less when I was team manager than half my team when I worked for a big public corp. The C level does make a lot more and/or the owners do but not all the management in between. With tech knowledge, though, you can escape the squash by starting your own business fairly easily. Not necessarily easy to create a successful business but easy to give it a shot.

ryandrake 12y ago
Yes, I believe this is more a more accurate assessment. I bet at most large and medium-sized tech companies, there's not a huge difference in compensation among rank-and-file employees (both individual contributors AND managers), with some managers earning more and some individual contributors making more. Probably no more than a 2X difference between what a junior engineer makes and what a senior engineering manager makes. However, there's going to be a HUGE gulf between what they make and what the senior executives make--anywhere between 3X and 300X. That's where you go to escape the "salary squash".

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

flexie 12y ago

Engineering is certainly not a proletariat. Engineers make more money than most professions and have more interesting jobs as well as lots of respect from other professions (I am not an engineer and I can tell you lots of people admire engineers). Also, many professions experience "pay squash". It's a myth that most managers make much more than programmers and that they "just" organize your time. Let's have a little bit of respect, not just for our own professions, but also for the people we work with.

zo1 12y ago
>"It's a myth that most managers make much more than programmers and that they "just" organize your time." Well, instead of just saying it's a myth and relying on averaged stats in the industry to satiate peoples' curiosity/jealousy, perhaps we should just all be more open about how much we all make. I.e. let's not make it taboo and "contractually-breaking" to discuss salaries openly. I know, yes, our current employment culture won't easily handle the strain of all coworkers knowing each others' and their superiors' salaries. But I have noticed the trend reversing slowly.
- analog31 12y ago
  I suspect that sharing salary info will result in a gradual downward grind in salaries, as people are offended by seeing someone make what seems like big money for easy work. This has been the case with public school teacher salaries. I also think that salary data, with no corresponding ability data, will be meaningless.
  - Consultant32452 12y ago
    Salary data is already available at places like salary.com. You can see what people with your job title in your area are making for free.
LoSboccacc 12y ago
not when compared to all other profession that require a degree, constant lerning and are higly specialized (each enginering branch is not interchangeable, as well as within the same branch specializing in one area reduces your employment prospects in others) also, the majority of managers are not the one that are in charge, taking decisions, managing risks and settings directions; middle managers types are way more common. and I do respect those of them that work well, but they are so hard to find that I'll stand by the 'most' in 'just organize things'.
- TheCoelacanth 12y ago
  What professions would those be? Law and medicine are probably the two most people are thinking of. Law does pay more for very successful people, but at the median it actually pays less. Doctors do get paid more, but they also spend a much longer time in training. The amount of time that most engineers spend in training is more in line with the amount of time that PAs spend in training.

Cupof37 12y ago

Let's not confuse engineering with programming. Most programmers aren't engineers (don't have engineering degrees, aren't comfortable with physics / calculus, etc.) Real engineers generally don't have these employment issues as they age. Programmers are 'engineers' in the same way that those with an MCSE are 'engineers' -- they operate a computer and employ a unique and useful skill-set.

matthewmacleod 12y ago
No true Scotsman. What's an engineer? I'd argue that people who studied software engineering for four or five years, then became software engineers, count as engineers. The fact that they don't have much insight into physics is wildly irrelevant.
- shanusmagnus 12y ago
  Can you study SE for 4/5 years and not have taken the standard physics sequence? Or did you mean not at university?
- ktran03 12y ago
  This varies with where you live. In Canada, a programmer is certainly not an engineer. And for Canadians going for a TN visa to work in the US, programmers are not allowed. Usually they try to slip in as 'Systems analysts' or craft the job/acceptance letter to fit under an engineering discipline. Software Engineers are engineers in Canada. A self taught programmer doing css/html is not an engineer. I'd simply qualify someone as an engineer, iff they successfully graduated from recognized university from an accredited Engineering program. And a second possible scenario is if someone's managed to pass all the Professional Engineer's examinations independently (rare).
  - fieryeagle 12y ago
    Not sure if one should favour 4 years in theory or 4 years in relevant work, for a programming position. For research, yes absolutely as it is straight carryover.