5 ms·

Lets see every 20-30 year old we have brought in the past 3 years: A) Is so arrogant they think they know it all. Then when they turn in the code it's barely

by jarsin 12y ago

Lets see every 20-30 year old we have brought in the past 3 years: A) Is so arrogant they think they know it all. Then when they turn in the code it's barely passable and it become clear they are going to be difficult to work with. B) Are overly emotional and they all take things way too seriously. Now every 35+ person we have brought in for a project is: A) Professional. Gets the job done and very well. B) Sees the bigger picture and goes with the flow. That's my personal experience but hey if I was management I would go with the 20 year old's all day long. As long as I did not know what they did or had to deal with them...Oh wait....

sterl 12y ago
I've found I almost exclusively prefer working with 30+ year old engineers. There's a huge difference and it shows.
JeremyMorgan 12y ago
When I was a programmer in my 20s, I saw the same among my peers and tried to emulate an engineer in my 30s. I stayed mature, tried to focus on the big picture and was always open to advice from elders because I didn't know squat yet and was aware of it. Just by doing that I excelled in many areas, and now as a n almost 40 year old developer I try to hire people who act like I did, and believe me they're out there.
- eternalban 12y ago
  When I was in my early 20s, did consulting stints while in grad school. One of my jobs, the senior engineer was a former Bell Labs white beard (literally) with his first 'program' hanging on his office wall :) I remember most of my age group had enormous respect for the older engineers. But then, we didn't have Google and Wikipedia and entirely too facile access to information that lends the patina of 'knowledge' that is so easily obtained these days. So a lot of the aggressive posturing these days is really a symptom of the not knowing that you don't know that much yet ..
- aksx 12y ago
  This is exactly why I enjoy reading HN. As a 21 year old software developer, I do not understand how can someone be arrogant, just opening github makes me acknowledge what I still need to learn.
  - random_coder 12y ago
    Then I'd say you have the right mindset for a software engineer :)
therealwill 12y ago
"B) Are overly emotional and they all take things way too seriously." This can be a positive. My experience with 40+ year olds is that they tend to sacrifice user experience/security for what they know. "Our customers won't care if they have to use Internet Explorer with ActiveX as long as it gets the job done." My point is that an experienced programmer who is not up to date can be as detrimental an arrogant 20 year old. The 40+ year old programmer who stay up to date though... They are worth their weight in gold and I aspire to join them one day. Edit: Background - Got really pissed off at a 40+ dev using active x to launch external programs and making it a requirement that our end users use IE with ActiveX enabled. Almost lost my job because management sided with the person who had more experience.
- nemo 12y ago
  "My experience with 40+ year olds is that they tend to sacrifice user experience/security for what they know." I'm sure there are some people who don't expand, though I am in my 40s and am constantly pressing for the best UX possible for customers. I've suffered enough with bad UX, I won't go along with inflicting that on anyone no matter how challenging it might be to fix. On the other hand I am (almost) always grateful for people pointing out bugs in things I write now, but used to be a lot more insecure about it. A hit to the pride is nothing compared to the pain of shipping something broken.
  - therealwill 12y ago
    "A hit to the pride is nothing compared to the pain of shipping something broken." Well said. This should be the golden rule of development. I feel that too often we (both young and old) don't ask questions because we fear the repercussions of appearing ignorant.
- nostrademons 12y ago
  Depending on what industry you're in, it's quite possible that your users won't care if they have to use Internet Explorer with ActiveX. A number of older and slower-to-change industries still require IE6 on corporate computers; supporting anything other than that is counterproductive, because their employers' IT departments won't permit them to load other browsers anyway. I can't know if you're in one of these industries, but one of the virtues of experience is knowing when something isn't important because you know facts about your particular niche that an outsider wouldn't.
jakobegger 12y ago
I think that there's a huge variation among developers regardless of age or experience. There are people who are 25 and believe they've seen it all, and there are 45 year olds who tell you they've seen it all. What they have in common is that they don't listen to your advise and refuse to learn new things.
- cubano 12y ago
  What they have in common is that they don't listen to your advise and refuse to learn new things. I was on a job interview a few days ago and was asked "What do you dislike the most about working with others on a team" and gave them your exact answer, thinking it sensible giving the state of software dev nowadays. I could tell immediately that they didn't care for it one bit, and the interview ended a few minutes later. I don't really know what they wanted to hear, but that sure was not it.
  - scrabble 12y ago
    Usually some crap like, "I feel like I end up putting team success over personal success and sometimes that feels like it hurts me professionally." Personally, I'd prefer your answer.
jacquesm 12y ago
I've seen some extremely capable young people, really, it was absolutely incredible how far ahead of their age group they were. Once you seen enough people you realize the bell curve always seems to apply, the curve shifts right along the experience axis over time but it will always be there and there will always be outliers. Don't rule out the 20 year olds just because of their age either.
monkeyshelli 12y ago
B) Are overly emotional and they all take things way too seriously. I've noticed that some young devs have really, really hard time when we discover bugs in "their baby". This most likely relates to the underlying arrogance ("there cannot be anything wrong with my code"). I hope that all the future gigs I end up, I'm part of the effort to create professional environment where the younger devs can pick-up professionalism from the seniors.
sdgsfsfgfg 12y ago
I was this 25 year old and I am ashamed. But to be fair on myself and others, I was expecting something more intellectually challenging than what basically amounts to a job in 'abstract plumbing'. Now I have come to terms with this reality life is much simpler.

by jarsin 12y ago

sterl 12y ago

I've found I almost exclusively prefer working with 30+ year old engineers. There's a huge difference and it shows.

JeremyMorgan 12y ago

When I was a programmer in my 20s, I saw the same among my peers and tried to emulate an engineer in my 30s. I stayed mature, tried to focus on the big picture and was always open to advice from elders because I didn't know squat yet and was aware of it. Just by doing that I excelled in many areas, and now as a n almost 40 year old developer I try to hire people who act like I did, and believe me they're out there.

eternalban 12y ago
When I was in my early 20s, did consulting stints while in grad school. One of my jobs, the senior engineer was a former Bell Labs white beard (literally) with his first 'program' hanging on his office wall :) I remember most of my age group had enormous respect for the older engineers. But then, we didn't have Google and Wikipedia and entirely too facile access to information that lends the patina of 'knowledge' that is so easily obtained these days. So a lot of the aggressive posturing these days is really a symptom of the not knowing that you don't know that much yet ..
aksx 12y ago
This is exactly why I enjoy reading HN. As a 21 year old software developer, I do not understand how can someone be arrogant, just opening github makes me acknowledge what I still need to learn.
- random_coder 12y ago
  Then I'd say you have the right mindset for a software engineer :)

therealwill 12y ago

"B) Are overly emotional and they all take things way too seriously." This can be a positive. My experience with 40+ year olds is that they tend to sacrifice user experience/security for what they know. "Our customers won't care if they have to use Internet Explorer with ActiveX as long as it gets the job done." My point is that an experienced programmer who is not up to date can be as detrimental an arrogant 20 year old. The 40+ year old programmer who stay up to date though... They are worth their weight in gold and I aspire to join them one day. Edit: Background - Got really pissed off at a 40+ dev using active x to launch external programs and making it a requirement that our end users use IE with ActiveX enabled. Almost lost my job because management sided with the person who had more experience.

nemo 12y ago
"My experience with 40+ year olds is that they tend to sacrifice user experience/security for what they know." I'm sure there are some people who don't expand, though I am in my 40s and am constantly pressing for the best UX possible for customers. I've suffered enough with bad UX, I won't go along with inflicting that on anyone no matter how challenging it might be to fix. On the other hand I am (almost) always grateful for people pointing out bugs in things I write now, but used to be a lot more insecure about it. A hit to the pride is nothing compared to the pain of shipping something broken.
- therealwill 12y ago
  "A hit to the pride is nothing compared to the pain of shipping something broken." Well said. This should be the golden rule of development. I feel that too often we (both young and old) don't ask questions because we fear the repercussions of appearing ignorant.
nostrademons 12y ago
Depending on what industry you're in, it's quite possible that your users won't care if they have to use Internet Explorer with ActiveX. A number of older and slower-to-change industries still require IE6 on corporate computers; supporting anything other than that is counterproductive, because their employers' IT departments won't permit them to load other browsers anyway. I can't know if you're in one of these industries, but one of the virtues of experience is knowing when something isn't important because you know facts about your particular niche that an outsider wouldn't.

jakobegger 12y ago

I think that there's a huge variation among developers regardless of age or experience. There are people who are 25 and believe they've seen it all, and there are 45 year olds who tell you they've seen it all. What they have in common is that they don't listen to your advise and refuse to learn new things.

cubano 12y ago
What they have in common is that they don't listen to your advise and refuse to learn new things. I was on a job interview a few days ago and was asked "What do you dislike the most about working with others on a team" and gave them your exact answer, thinking it sensible giving the state of software dev nowadays. I could tell immediately that they didn't care for it one bit, and the interview ended a few minutes later. I don't really know what they wanted to hear, but that sure was not it.
- scrabble 12y ago
  Usually some crap like, "I feel like I end up putting team success over personal success and sometimes that feels like it hurts me professionally." Personally, I'd prefer your answer.

jacquesm 12y ago

I've seen some extremely capable young people, really, it was absolutely incredible how far ahead of their age group they were. Once you seen enough people you realize the bell curve always seems to apply, the curve shifts right along the experience axis over time but it will always be there and there will always be outliers. Don't rule out the 20 year olds just because of their age either.

monkeyshelli 12y ago

B) Are overly emotional and they all take things way too seriously. I've noticed that some young devs have really, really hard time when we discover bugs in "their baby". This most likely relates to the underlying arrogance ("there cannot be anything wrong with my code"). I hope that all the future gigs I end up, I'm part of the effort to create professional environment where the younger devs can pick-up professionalism from the seniors.

sdgsfsfgfg 12y ago

I was this 25 year old and I am ashamed. But to be fair on myself and others, I was expecting something more intellectually challenging than what basically amounts to a job in 'abstract plumbing'. Now I have come to terms with this reality life is much simpler.