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i'd suggest that intelligent employers realize that the language and stack are only a very small part of building a product. The more interesting problems are h

i'd suggest that intelligent employers realize that the language and stack are only a very small part of building a product. The more interesting problems are hard not due to language, but due to algorithms, data structuring, design patters and general architecting et al. The 10yr C++ programmer ought to have those things nailed, the junior may not know they even exist.

zenonu 12y ago
Right. The issue here is that there's a difference between a software engineer and a programmer. A programmer is measured by years of experiences with particular technologies. Programmers are unfortunately replaceable commodities as a result. Software engineers are measured by their ability to work within constraints to use ANY tools available to them to solve the problem on time and in such a way that it'll scale to load. If you're in a workplace full of programmers, consider moving onto to a firm that hires software engineers. You may have to move out of state unfortunately since the culture doesn't exist everywhere.
codeonfire 12y ago
that's a good suggestion. it will fall on deaf ears because employers don't read anything on the Internet and they hate engineers, especially old ones. they can't get basic things like don't sexually harass employees right, so how are they going to get age discrimination right.
- maerF0x0 12y ago
  You sound burned out by bad employers. Come to the bay area, good ones are legion.
mistermann 12y ago
> problems are hard not due to language, but due to algorithms, data structuring, design patters and general architecting et al. This is where I think we do get some legitimacy to this discrimination though. Most places you go, people are implementing functionality that is not terribly unlike that which has been done for the last 20 years (I'm talking the generic business "enterprise" shop). However, there seems to be about a ~~20% turnover in tools, styles, patterns, etc every year, and in my opinion at least on some platforms, the implementation style is tending towards the most complicated possible over-architected solutions possible. When you're young and single, you have all the time in the world to keep up to date on all this, but once you're married, not so much. So, while I could easily out-implement the more "current" people, I'm not up tp speed on everything in their toolbox, so I lose. As you say, "intelligent employers" should realize this, but how are they to know the technology flavor or style du jour is a waste of time, when the industry itself can't figure it out? ("everything XML" as just one example)

zenonu 12y ago

Right. The issue here is that there's a difference between a software engineer and a programmer. A programmer is measured by years of experiences with particular technologies. Programmers are unfortunately replaceable commodities as a result. Software engineers are measured by their ability to work within constraints to use ANY tools available to them to solve the problem on time and in such a way that it'll scale to load. If you're in a workplace full of programmers, consider moving onto to a firm that hires software engineers. You may have to move out of state unfortunately since the culture doesn't exist everywhere.

codeonfire 12y ago

that's a good suggestion. it will fall on deaf ears because employers don't read anything on the Internet and they hate engineers, especially old ones. they can't get basic things like don't sexually harass employees right, so how are they going to get age discrimination right.

maerF0x0 12y ago
You sound burned out by bad employers. Come to the bay area, good ones are legion.

mistermann 12y ago

> problems are hard not due to language, but due to algorithms, data structuring, design patters and general architecting et al. This is where I think we do get some legitimacy to this discrimination though. Most places you go, people are implementing functionality that is not terribly unlike that which has been done for the last 20 years (I'm talking the generic business "enterprise" shop). However, there seems to be about a ~~20% turnover in tools, styles, patterns, etc every year, and in my opinion at least on some platforms, the implementation style is tending towards the most complicated possible over-architected solutions possible. When you're young and single, you have all the time in the world to keep up to date on all this, but once you're married, not so much. So, while I could easily out-implement the more "current" people, I'm not up tp speed on everything in their toolbox, so I lose. As you say, "intelligent employers" should realize this, but how are they to know the technology flavor or style du jour is a waste of time, when the industry itself can't figure it out? ("everything XML" as just one example)