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It's hard to really summarize ethereum well... it's just so different from any existing system, IMHO. Unless you're really into the nitty gritty of cryptocurre

by drcode 12y ago

It's hard to really summarize ethereum well... it's just so different from any existing system, IMHO. Unless you're really into the nitty gritty of cryptocurrency technology, it won't really make sense until people manage to build some compelling apps for it, hopefully around the summer time.

zzalpha 12y ago
So then list some of those compelling apps. Think like a marketing guy. I don't care about the specifics of the mechanism. Tell me what it will do for me, the user, that I'll care about.
- drcode 12y ago
  OK, I'll give it a shot... At its heart, ethereum is a tool for minimizing counterparty risk and cost. You don't want Twitter to extinguish 3rd party twitter clients? You don't want Uber to take a 30% monopoly fee on every transaction? You don't want your stock broker to front-load your market orders? These are all forms of counterparty risk/cost. So the compelling applications for ethereum are: A prediction market with minimal counterparty risk, a stock exchange minimal counterparty risk, a product market with minimal counterparty risk, a currency exchange with minimal counterparty risk, a poker site with minimal counterparty risk, a social network with minimal counterparty risk, a ride sharing site with minimal counterparty risk, etc.
  - 0x8D3A 12y ago
    Some of your examples need oracles to deliver information into the script, which is (oh no!) your counter party so you're back to square one again. It doesn't work in any other way due to the realities of distributed consensus. The example of a poker system within Ethereum is incredibly unlikely, a social network or Uber clone the same but for meatspace issues rather than cryptographic ones. I've still yet to come across a single person who can give me a compelling reason for Ethereum to exist other than "this is awesome because it will change the world" or other similar drivel. It's always impossible due to limits in Ethereum's design, limits of reality, or just stuff you can do in Bitcoin anyway and nobody has realized.
    - drcode 12y ago
      The goal is to minimize counterparty risk, not entirely eliminate it... you are right that in many cases that just isn't possible.
      - 0x8D3A 12y ago
        Even in cases where it might be possible the end result to a human is often completely unusable. You might hate the Uber taxi cartel or whatever, but at least using them you have some degree of privacy (with "smart contracts" your privacy is absolutely gone, and not just financial privacy) and customer service. For example there's a fad of putting "ownership" of physical assets into bitcoin tokens for example, fine, that works until someone steals the token and not the physical asset. Now who owns the asset? Reality is out of sync with what the block chain says so, there's no support to help me get it back and no backdoor. Privacy is even harder. With Bitcoin everyone knows what you spend, where you spend it, probably what you spend it too with some extrapolation. With "smart contracts" now everybody knows who your arbitrator is, who you play poker with, what brand of fridge you own. There's no getting around that if you want a public ledger.
        bachback 12y ago
        Much agree - those are the big conceptual holes in smart contracts. The concept still has a lot of merit, in the very long term. It's a bit like trying to imagine Google in 1993. Most of the things one can assume are most likely going to be wrong, including even the usages of these systems. I'd personally start with extending the Bitcoin script and thinking about better ways for multiple users to use it.
        0x8D3A 12y ago
        It boils down the point that you don't actually want to be doing computation at that level anyway. There's a very good reason that Bitcoin Script should be simplistic, why the hell would you want to be doing any sort of detailed computation at that level? With n nodes on the network you amplify the load n times, why not do it on an oracle where it's practically free? There's already comments by the Ethereum developers that it will be incredibly hard for a client to ever bootstrap from genesis once they launch, just due to the insane amount of script execution time. If you're taking input from an oracle (you almost always are), you have the same level of trust in it anyway, you just moved computation into the stupidly expensive and massively redundant portion of the system. The 'solutions' for distributed oracles with ShellingCoin and related garbage is just hand wavy nonsense with so little basis in reality that it's not worth talking about.
- natrius 12y ago
  - Decentralized, uncensorable prediction markets, which publicize expertise so everyone can predict the future - Decentralized, low-margin labor markets (e.g. Uber, Postmates, etc.) with lower prices for consumers and higher profits for workers - Currencies based on local prices indexes, which can give even the smallest of countries stable money that they don't have today And lots of other things people haven't thought of yet.
- RoboTeddy 12y ago
  A random example: you could implement online poker (which is currently banned in the US). It'd be trustless (i.e., anyone can verify that they're not being cheated), and couldn't easily be taken down [1] [1] https://forum.ethereum.org/discussion/comment/2944/#Comment_2944 https://forum.ethereum.org/discussion/comment/2944/#Comment_...

by drcode 12y ago

zzalpha 12y ago

So then list some of those compelling apps. Think like a marketing guy. I don't care about the specifics of the mechanism. Tell me what it will do for me, the user, that I'll care about.

drcode 12y ago
OK, I'll give it a shot... At its heart, ethereum is a tool for minimizing counterparty risk and cost. You don't want Twitter to extinguish 3rd party twitter clients? You don't want Uber to take a 30% monopoly fee on every transaction? You don't want your stock broker to front-load your market orders? These are all forms of counterparty risk/cost. So the compelling applications for ethereum are: A prediction market with minimal counterparty risk, a stock exchange minimal counterparty risk, a product market with minimal counterparty risk, a currency exchange with minimal counterparty risk, a poker site with minimal counterparty risk, a social network with minimal counterparty risk, a ride sharing site with minimal counterparty risk, etc.
- 0x8D3A 12y ago
  Some of your examples need oracles to deliver information into the script, which is (oh no!) your counter party so you're back to square one again. It doesn't work in any other way due to the realities of distributed consensus. The example of a poker system within Ethereum is incredibly unlikely, a social network or Uber clone the same but for meatspace issues rather than cryptographic ones. I've still yet to come across a single person who can give me a compelling reason for Ethereum to exist other than "this is awesome because it will change the world" or other similar drivel. It's always impossible due to limits in Ethereum's design, limits of reality, or just stuff you can do in Bitcoin anyway and nobody has realized.
  - drcode 12y ago
    The goal is to minimize counterparty risk, not entirely eliminate it... you are right that in many cases that just isn't possible.
    - 0x8D3A 12y ago
      Even in cases where it might be possible the end result to a human is often completely unusable. You might hate the Uber taxi cartel or whatever, but at least using them you have some degree of privacy (with "smart contracts" your privacy is absolutely gone, and not just financial privacy) and customer service. For example there's a fad of putting "ownership" of physical assets into bitcoin tokens for example, fine, that works until someone steals the token and not the physical asset. Now who owns the asset? Reality is out of sync with what the block chain says so, there's no support to help me get it back and no backdoor. Privacy is even harder. With Bitcoin everyone knows what you spend, where you spend it, probably what you spend it too with some extrapolation. With "smart contracts" now everybody knows who your arbitrator is, who you play poker with, what brand of fridge you own. There's no getting around that if you want a public ledger.
      - bachback 12y ago
        Much agree - those are the big conceptual holes in smart contracts. The concept still has a lot of merit, in the very long term. It's a bit like trying to imagine Google in 1993. Most of the things one can assume are most likely going to be wrong, including even the usages of these systems. I'd personally start with extending the Bitcoin script and thinking about better ways for multiple users to use it.
        0x8D3A 12y ago
        It boils down the point that you don't actually want to be doing computation at that level anyway. There's a very good reason that Bitcoin Script should be simplistic, why the hell would you want to be doing any sort of detailed computation at that level? With n nodes on the network you amplify the load n times, why not do it on an oracle where it's practically free? There's already comments by the Ethereum developers that it will be incredibly hard for a client to ever bootstrap from genesis once they launch, just due to the insane amount of script execution time. If you're taking input from an oracle (you almost always are), you have the same level of trust in it anyway, you just moved computation into the stupidly expensive and massively redundant portion of the system. The 'solutions' for distributed oracles with ShellingCoin and related garbage is just hand wavy nonsense with so little basis in reality that it's not worth talking about.
natrius 12y ago
- Decentralized, uncensorable prediction markets, which publicize expertise so everyone can predict the future - Decentralized, low-margin labor markets (e.g. Uber, Postmates, etc.) with lower prices for consumers and higher profits for workers - Currencies based on local prices indexes, which can give even the smallest of countries stable money that they don't have today And lots of other things people haven't thought of yet.
RoboTeddy 12y ago
A random example: you could implement online poker (which is currently banned in the US). It'd be trustless (i.e., anyone can verify that they're not being cheated), and couldn't easily be taken down [1] [1] https://forum.ethereum.org/discussion/comment/2944/#Comment_2944 https://forum.ethereum.org/discussion/comment/2944/#Comment_...