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On a day like today, I prefer to remember men like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Morrison http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Morrison Downvote me

On a day like today, I prefer to remember men like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Morrison http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Morrison Downvote me if you must, but as you do consider deeply the message you send when you thank men and women for engaging in war.

raganwald 17y ago
I'll upvote you for sincerity, and I have thought about my message for a long time. I encourage everyone else to think about what it really means to go to engage in war and when you should or shouldn't do so. My situation may be different from yours. Perhaps I am being too selfish: I sincerely believe I would not be here today had the Canadians sat out WWI and WWII. I sincerely believe that almost everything I love about Hacking and Hacker Culture would not exist in Canada and the USA had Fascists dominated Europe. If I make a list of people in this industry that I admire, I keep coming up with ethnicities and gender preferences that would have been oppressed and/or exterminated. My message is somewhat overwrought and emotional, but I'm very clear on how I am the recipient of the greatest gift of all.
- jacquesm 17y ago
  World War I and World War II are wars that were not sought by many of the parties involved, and I think they deserve special consideration. Most of the other wars that have produced countless veterans were wars of aggression though. I know two vietnam vets personally (I don't have that much exposure to the US other than online and from when I lived 'nearby'), and neither of them is at all proud of what happened and sincerely despise politicians and everything associated with that era. They didn't have much choice about being there though, and at the time they thought it was a good thing. The lesson I guess is that you should not let stuff like this blind you, and you should always be on guard that you do not become someone elses tool.
jgrahamc 17y ago
I won't down vote you for that, I have no problem with questioning the political reasons why wars are waged. But that doesn't stop me also honouring the men and women who fight in them. To me these things are quite distinct. So, I might think that Britain's involvement in Iraq was a mistake and should not have happened, but I would shake the hand of any British serviceman who served there and thank them for doing so.
- Periodic 17y ago
  I think some don't realize that they should separate the soldiers who fight the wars from those who make the policy and decisions about where and when and what to fight. Our service men and women are committed to fighting to better our country and the world. They trust their superiors to make the right decisions. You can disagree with the bad decisions of those superiors, but the service men and women will be there fighting regardless of whether it was right or wrong because the cost of missing the right call is too high. Honor the troops, not the politicians.
  - prodigal_erik 17y ago
    > service men and women will be there fighting regardless of whether it was right or wrong because the cost of missing the right call is too high Thank you, this is the first time I've seen it argued the people enlisting realize and accept the country is likely to squander their time and risk their lives over nothing worthy of them. I could never reconcile their somehow overlooking that with the dedication they bring to the work.
    - david 17y ago
      As if the cost of carrying out the wrong call isn't too high either? The worst case isn't that soldiers' time is squandered or that they risk their lives over nothing worthy, it's that they kill and destroy needlessly, but I guess we don't really tend to come to terms with that fact as well as the people we're fighting.
  - CWuestefeld 17y ago
    You can disagree with the bad decisions of those superiors, but the service men and women will be there fighting regardless of whether it was right or wrong Apologies for invoking Godwin's Law, but this is quite precisely where the analogy is applicable. From The Twilight Zone episode "Death's Head Revisited": "They just heard you offer the apology for all the monsters of our time . We did as we were told, we functioned as ordered, we merely carried out directives from our superiors. Familiar, is it, Captain? It was the Nazi theme music at Nuremburg. The new lyrics to the Gotterdammerung. The plaintive litany of the master race as it laid dying. We did not do, others did, or someone else did it. We never even knew it was being done or We did it, but others told us to." I now cringingly await the downvotes.
cellis 17y ago
War is often a necessary evil. Yes there are the cliched arguments that all wars are about resources,etc, but I believe that war arises sometimes because there is a genuine need to defend [oneself,family,civilization] from harm from evil people (or, more PC and nihilistic, from people that would take it away). Life is about living, not dying. But sometimes we have to fight and kill, in order to live.
kscaldef 17y ago
I agree with you that there are wars I wish we had not fought. But at the same time, far more fought and died in wars where I believe our cause was just.
markerdmann 17y ago
I appreciate the thoughtful responses, especially from raganwald (my original comment was directed primarily at this discussion thread rather than his post). The common thread in your responses seems to be that politicians, not soldiers, are responsible for wars. My response to this idea is that one must not conflate "dying for freedom" with "killing for freedom". We should certainly oppose the enemies of liberty, but not by glorifying violence. It has always been, and will forever be, possible to oppose something without killing your fellow human beings. For this to succeed, however, you must have the courage to enter the fray with your arms at your sides.
jacoblyles 17y ago
War is evil and ought not to be entered into lightly. It is somewhat boring to make that observation because everybody agrees with it. Yet looking at history forces me to conclude that we would not have been able to build our civilization without engaging in this evil a few times. And I think our civilization is one worth celebrating - certainly it has made a dent in many of the other evils that have plagued mankind since the first ape dared to walk upright. Moreover, it takes courage to enter into the armed forces and be one of the people who sacrifices their personal goals to protect our civilization. So we have a holiday set aside for those people. I don't think the wars in Vietnam or Iraq were very wise, either. But it seems out of place and immature to sound that drumbeat on this holiday, like an atheist who feels compelled to demonstrate outside of churches on Christmas.
- markerdmann 17y ago
  Our civilization is one worth celebrating because we have engaged in progressively less war. This, not our use of one evil to flail against another evil, is the cause of our success. If you haven't read Steven Pinker's essay A History of Violence (or seen the related TED talk at http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violen...), I would recommend taking a look.
  - jacoblyles 17y ago
    Yes, war is one of the evils which we have reduced. But I don't think we would have gotten to this state by being pacifists. The world is a complex place, full of little contradictions.
    - cabalamat 17y ago
      Indeed not; the pacifists would simply have been exploited and killed or enslaved by others.
  - joecode 17y ago
    I would be careful about taking Pinker's argument too uncritically. It relies on a very particular selection of secondary academic sources, such as Keely's "War Before Civilization." But Keely's book, while a reasonable response to the "myth of the peaceful savage", has been criticized for creating a "myth of the warlike savage". http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a791282214 http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a791...
theblackbox 17y ago
I don't know what to say... this is a very emotive subject on both sides and I have conflicting forces pulling me in both directions. But for something that is stunning beyond compare, is the equal of any and all great things ever said, I can recommend few things with more passion than Charlie Chaplin's Great Dictator[0]. It's a film that sums up the genius of the man, and the power of film. But, more importantly, it speaks of the nobility of the human heart... I'll let him say it better than I could ever hope to. He apparently regretted making the film as it was made before he was aware of the full horror and attrocity of the concentration camps... but it's a beautiful and timeless piece of cinematography that inspires me. [0] - His closing speech: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcvjoWOwnn4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcvjoWOwnn4 Thank You to all men and women everywhere who fight for liberty... however that may be.
tome 17y ago
I see what you're saying, but it's also possible to argue that that man killed the father of a young baby.
crux 17y ago
What I think is most telling about that is McNamara's response to Morrison; rather than attempting to paint all dissent as traitorous, or to claim (as would surely be claimed now) that Morrison 'hates the troops', McNamara accepts the moral responsibility for the killing being done and attempts to come to terms with it. I think a day like today has as much room for Norman Morrison as it does for the soldiers currently suffering and dying on our behalf. I'll remember both, if I can.

raganwald 17y ago

I'll upvote you for sincerity, and I have thought about my message for a long time. I encourage everyone else to think about what it really means to go to engage in war and when you should or shouldn't do so. My situation may be different from yours. Perhaps I am being too selfish: I sincerely believe I would not be here today had the Canadians sat out WWI and WWII. I sincerely believe that almost everything I love about Hacking and Hacker Culture would not exist in Canada and the USA had Fascists dominated Europe. If I make a list of people in this industry that I admire, I keep coming up with ethnicities and gender preferences that would have been oppressed and/or exterminated. My message is somewhat overwrought and emotional, but I'm very clear on how I am the recipient of the greatest gift of all.

jacquesm 17y ago
World War I and World War II are wars that were not sought by many of the parties involved, and I think they deserve special consideration. Most of the other wars that have produced countless veterans were wars of aggression though. I know two vietnam vets personally (I don't have that much exposure to the US other than online and from when I lived 'nearby'), and neither of them is at all proud of what happened and sincerely despise politicians and everything associated with that era. They didn't have much choice about being there though, and at the time they thought it was a good thing. The lesson I guess is that you should not let stuff like this blind you, and you should always be on guard that you do not become someone elses tool.

jgrahamc 17y ago

I won't down vote you for that, I have no problem with questioning the political reasons why wars are waged. But that doesn't stop me also honouring the men and women who fight in them. To me these things are quite distinct. So, I might think that Britain's involvement in Iraq was a mistake and should not have happened, but I would shake the hand of any British serviceman who served there and thank them for doing so.

Periodic 17y ago
I think some don't realize that they should separate the soldiers who fight the wars from those who make the policy and decisions about where and when and what to fight. Our service men and women are committed to fighting to better our country and the world. They trust their superiors to make the right decisions. You can disagree with the bad decisions of those superiors, but the service men and women will be there fighting regardless of whether it was right or wrong because the cost of missing the right call is too high. Honor the troops, not the politicians.
- prodigal_erik 17y ago
  > service men and women will be there fighting regardless of whether it was right or wrong because the cost of missing the right call is too high Thank you, this is the first time I've seen it argued the people enlisting realize and accept the country is likely to squander their time and risk their lives over nothing worthy of them. I could never reconcile their somehow overlooking that with the dedication they bring to the work.
  - david 17y ago
    As if the cost of carrying out the wrong call isn't too high either? The worst case isn't that soldiers' time is squandered or that they risk their lives over nothing worthy, it's that they kill and destroy needlessly, but I guess we don't really tend to come to terms with that fact as well as the people we're fighting.
- CWuestefeld 17y ago
  You can disagree with the bad decisions of those superiors, but the service men and women will be there fighting regardless of whether it was right or wrong Apologies for invoking Godwin's Law, but this is quite precisely where the analogy is applicable. From The Twilight Zone episode "Death's Head Revisited": "They just heard you offer the apology for all the monsters of our time . We did as we were told, we functioned as ordered, we merely carried out directives from our superiors. Familiar, is it, Captain? It was the Nazi theme music at Nuremburg. The new lyrics to the Gotterdammerung. The plaintive litany of the master race as it laid dying. We did not do, others did, or someone else did it. We never even knew it was being done or We did it, but others told us to." I now cringingly await the downvotes.

cellis 17y ago

War is often a necessary evil. Yes there are the cliched arguments that all wars are about resources,etc, but I believe that war arises sometimes because there is a genuine need to defend [oneself,family,civilization] from harm from evil people (or, more PC and nihilistic, from people that would take it away). Life is about living, not dying. But sometimes we have to fight and kill, in order to live.

kscaldef 17y ago

I agree with you that there are wars I wish we had not fought. But at the same time, far more fought and died in wars where I believe our cause was just.

markerdmann 17y ago

I appreciate the thoughtful responses, especially from raganwald (my original comment was directed primarily at this discussion thread rather than his post). The common thread in your responses seems to be that politicians, not soldiers, are responsible for wars. My response to this idea is that one must not conflate "dying for freedom" with "killing for freedom". We should certainly oppose the enemies of liberty, but not by glorifying violence. It has always been, and will forever be, possible to oppose something without killing your fellow human beings. For this to succeed, however, you must have the courage to enter the fray with your arms at your sides.

jacoblyles 17y ago

War is evil and ought not to be entered into lightly. It is somewhat boring to make that observation because everybody agrees with it. Yet looking at history forces me to conclude that we would not have been able to build our civilization without engaging in this evil a few times. And I think our civilization is one worth celebrating - certainly it has made a dent in many of the other evils that have plagued mankind since the first ape dared to walk upright. Moreover, it takes courage to enter into the armed forces and be one of the people who sacrifices their personal goals to protect our civilization. So we have a holiday set aside for those people. I don't think the wars in Vietnam or Iraq were very wise, either. But it seems out of place and immature to sound that drumbeat on this holiday, like an atheist who feels compelled to demonstrate outside of churches on Christmas.

markerdmann 17y ago
Our civilization is one worth celebrating because we have engaged in progressively less war. This, not our use of one evil to flail against another evil, is the cause of our success. If you haven't read Steven Pinker's essay A History of Violence (or seen the related TED talk at http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violen...), I would recommend taking a look.
- jacoblyles 17y ago
  Yes, war is one of the evils which we have reduced. But I don't think we would have gotten to this state by being pacifists. The world is a complex place, full of little contradictions.
  - cabalamat 17y ago
    Indeed not; the pacifists would simply have been exploited and killed or enslaved by others.
- joecode 17y ago
  I would be careful about taking Pinker's argument too uncritically. It relies on a very particular selection of secondary academic sources, such as Keely's "War Before Civilization." But Keely's book, while a reasonable response to the "myth of the peaceful savage", has been criticized for creating a "myth of the warlike savage". http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a791282214 http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a791...

theblackbox 17y ago

I don't know what to say... this is a very emotive subject on both sides and I have conflicting forces pulling me in both directions. But for something that is stunning beyond compare, is the equal of any and all great things ever said, I can recommend few things with more passion than Charlie Chaplin's Great Dictator[0]. It's a film that sums up the genius of the man, and the power of film. But, more importantly, it speaks of the nobility of the human heart... I'll let him say it better than I could ever hope to. He apparently regretted making the film as it was made before he was aware of the full horror and attrocity of the concentration camps... but it's a beautiful and timeless piece of cinematography that inspires me. [0] - His closing speech: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcvjoWOwnn4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcvjoWOwnn4 Thank You to all men and women everywhere who fight for liberty... however that may be.

tome 17y ago

I see what you're saying, but it's also possible to argue that that man killed the father of a young baby.

crux 17y ago

What I think is most telling about that is McNamara's response to Morrison; rather than attempting to paint all dissent as traitorous, or to claim (as would surely be claimed now) that Morrison 'hates the troops', McNamara accepts the moral responsibility for the killing being done and attempts to come to terms with it. I think a day like today has as much room for Norman Morrison as it does for the soldiers currently suffering and dying on our behalf. I'll remember both, if I can.