7 ms·

Dulce et Decorum Est

20 points by KC8ZKF 17y ago

bravura 17y ago
DULCE ET DECORUM EST - the first words of a Latin saying (taken from an ode by Horace). The words were widely understood and often quoted at the start of the First World War. They mean "It is sweet and right." I prefer the motto of the Harvard Advocate: DULCE EST PERICULUM. "Sweet is danger"
lsd5you 17y ago
It should be noted that in the original latin work, 'Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori ...' the phrase is also spoken with irony/satire, but then subsequently taken out of context and used to rally the troops. Or at least that is my understanding.
- telemachos 17y ago
  I'm sorry to say, but your understanding is wrong. As another poster mentions, the poem (Ode III, 2) is from a series of highly patriotic poems, often called "the Roman odes" as a group. (That name is modern. It covers Odes III, 1-6.) Many people feel that there are various levels of implicit irony or criticism in Horace's pro-Roman or pro-Augustan poems, but the surface level is clearly positive.
  - lsd5you 17y ago
    So you are not an intentionalist? I'm not equiped to argue this authoratively, but from what i gather the words taken literally are out of character, so are at least disingenious at some level. Unless he really believed in the message, how can such a strident message be anything but ironic,satirical or hollow.
    - telemachos 17y ago
      I'm an intentionalist about meaning, but I'm not sure that's the right question. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean or what you're asking. Horace's personal character is hard to know. The character of the speaker in his Odes, however, is that of an older, world-weary man, somewhat cynical about love, philosophy and politics. But this same persona acknowledges frequently that he owes his life of leisure to Maecenas and Augustus, and he makes his living (the character and the real man in this case) as a court poet. As a younger man, Horace fought on the (so-called) Republican side with the army of Brutus and Cassius. Like many of the young men who were in that army and lived, he returned to Rome and was not penalized or pursued by Octavian (later Augustus). Octavian as a young man could be brutal to his enemies, but in this case he wasn't. The Odes are filled with many sub-types of poems, but two basic types: lyric poems, praising the life of leisure and ease that the speaker enjoys (explicitly because of the gifts of Maecenas and Augustus) and poems explicitly praising Maecenas, Augustus and various political allies and generals under Augustus. The books are explicitly dedicated to Maecenas, who has been described as Octavian/Augustus's minister of propaganda. They are formally examples of poetry of praise: praise of Augustus, his reign and Rome. So, the words dulce et decorum are arguably not in character in the sense that the speaker (an older man, far past the point of joining any army) can't live up to them, but they are entirely in character with the tone, spirit and content of the first three books of Odes. (If anything the 4th book of Odes, written much later, is even more fawningly propagandistic.) By the way, it sounds like you are going on what you've heard/read from others, and there's nothing wrong with that. But I would urge you to read that whole poem and even better Odes III, 1-6, to get a sense of their tone. There's simply nothing in III, 2 to suggest irony or satire.
      - lsd5you 17y ago
        Thanks, that is educational. You are right, at this level of discussion I only have 2nd opinions ... Yet seemingly there are academics that disagree with you, in plain english - http://www.jstor.org/pss/3291643 http://www.jstor.org/pss/3291643. It does raise the question about how well we can know what people meant and felt 2000yrs ago, particularly in this case given the political context.
MarkPNeyer 17y ago
For those unaware (or too lazy to go to the website) the transliteration is as follows: 'Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori' -> Sweet and fitting it is for the fatherland to die.
- Maktab 17y ago
  Rather, the translation is: 'It is sweet and right to die for one's country'. Alternatively, it could be rendered as 'It is noble and honourable to die for one's fatherland' or similar.
- rwmj 17y ago
  Yes I'd agree with the other reply that "pro patria" is "for [your] country", and has nothing to do with the word "fatherland". (And yes I did study Latin for about 10 years).
  - telemachos 17y ago
    Different countries personify their nations in different ways, or not at all. The Latin word patria is feminine, and Cicero and others personified Roma as a woman. That said, 'fatherland' is not necessarily an unreasonable translation of patria, depending on the context. (It does have some unfortunate overtones now, but that's accidental.)
    - LyBar 17y ago
      The Latin word patria is feminine -- If that is the case,then riddle me this: Why are Kings referred to as patriarchs and Queens referred to as Matriarchs? Why is one's father's family called Paternal relatives and one's mother's considered maternal relatives? Why is the Latin word for father pater, patr and for mother mater, matr? Why do the electronic and online translaters say patria means fatherland?
bbg 17y ago
The phrase is from Horace, Carmen 3.2, line 13. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0025%3Abook%3D3%3Apoem%3D2 http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%... Whether it's ironic or not is hard to say. It doesn't really sound like it. First he urges a boy to become skilled in war, then he pictures the boy's fiancee begging him not to fight against the enemy's star fighter -- a lion of a warrior. Then the poet says, "it is sweet and fitting to die on behalf of one's country," and goes on the describe the heroic qualities of personified Virtue in face of opposition. Horace did claim to have himself thrown away his shield and fled from battle when in the service of the republican cause (the side of Brutus) after the death of Caesar. But he's also picking up on a theme used by early Greek poets, like Alcaeus, so it's questionable how much of this confession is literary trope and how much is historical evidence. Furthermore, Horace had been fighting on the losing side, and he later found it necessary to receive pardon from the victor Octavian (aka Augustus), so better to sound like he supported the republicans only half-heartedly. On the other hand, it might well still be true that he ditched his shield and ran. The poem dates from after his military experience, and belongs to a collection of poems called the 'Roman Odes' that celebrate Rome and the emperor Augustus. I think that's mostly correct, but it's been a while since I studied these things.
carey 17y ago
For added poignancy, the author of the poem, Wilfred Owen, was killed one week before the end of the war, and his mother (apocryphally?) received the telegram as the bells rang for the first Armistice Day.
balding_n_tired 17y ago
Good point,bbg--it struck me as a bit like Robert Burns writing "The Devil Away with the Excise Man". I believe that the line is close to being a translation from a line in one of Tyrtaeus's poems. I definitely vote with telemachos on this one.

20 points by KC8ZKF 17y ago

DULCE ET DECORUM EST - the first words of a Latin saying (taken from an ode by Horace). The words were widely understood and often quoted at the start of the First World War. They mean "It is sweet and right." I prefer the motto of the Harvard Advocate: DULCE EST PERICULUM. "Sweet is danger"

lsd5you 17y ago

It should be noted that in the original latin work, 'Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori ...' the phrase is also spoken with irony/satire, but then subsequently taken out of context and used to rally the troops. Or at least that is my understanding.

telemachos 17y ago
I'm sorry to say, but your understanding is wrong. As another poster mentions, the poem (Ode III, 2) is from a series of highly patriotic poems, often called "the Roman odes" as a group. (That name is modern. It covers Odes III, 1-6.) Many people feel that there are various levels of implicit irony or criticism in Horace's pro-Roman or pro-Augustan poems, but the surface level is clearly positive.
- lsd5you 17y ago
  So you are not an intentionalist? I'm not equiped to argue this authoratively, but from what i gather the words taken literally are out of character, so are at least disingenious at some level. Unless he really believed in the message, how can such a strident message be anything but ironic,satirical or hollow.
  - telemachos 17y ago
    I'm an intentionalist about meaning, but I'm not sure that's the right question. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean or what you're asking. Horace's personal character is hard to know. The character of the speaker in his Odes, however, is that of an older, world-weary man, somewhat cynical about love, philosophy and politics. But this same persona acknowledges frequently that he owes his life of leisure to Maecenas and Augustus, and he makes his living (the character and the real man in this case) as a court poet. As a younger man, Horace fought on the (so-called) Republican side with the army of Brutus and Cassius. Like many of the young men who were in that army and lived, he returned to Rome and was not penalized or pursued by Octavian (later Augustus). Octavian as a young man could be brutal to his enemies, but in this case he wasn't. The Odes are filled with many sub-types of poems, but two basic types: lyric poems, praising the life of leisure and ease that the speaker enjoys (explicitly because of the gifts of Maecenas and Augustus) and poems explicitly praising Maecenas, Augustus and various political allies and generals under Augustus. The books are explicitly dedicated to Maecenas, who has been described as Octavian/Augustus's minister of propaganda. They are formally examples of poetry of praise: praise of Augustus, his reign and Rome. So, the words dulce et decorum are arguably not in character in the sense that the speaker (an older man, far past the point of joining any army) can't live up to them, but they are entirely in character with the tone, spirit and content of the first three books of Odes. (If anything the 4th book of Odes, written much later, is even more fawningly propagandistic.) By the way, it sounds like you are going on what you've heard/read from others, and there's nothing wrong with that. But I would urge you to read that whole poem and even better Odes III, 1-6, to get a sense of their tone. There's simply nothing in III, 2 to suggest irony or satire.
    - lsd5you 17y ago
      Thanks, that is educational. You are right, at this level of discussion I only have 2nd opinions ... Yet seemingly there are academics that disagree with you, in plain english - http://www.jstor.org/pss/3291643 http://www.jstor.org/pss/3291643. It does raise the question about how well we can know what people meant and felt 2000yrs ago, particularly in this case given the political context.

MarkPNeyer 17y ago

For those unaware (or too lazy to go to the website) the transliteration is as follows: 'Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori' -> Sweet and fitting it is for the fatherland to die.

Maktab 17y ago
Rather, the translation is: 'It is sweet and right to die for one's country'. Alternatively, it could be rendered as 'It is noble and honourable to die for one's fatherland' or similar.
rwmj 17y ago
Yes I'd agree with the other reply that "pro patria" is "for [your] country", and has nothing to do with the word "fatherland". (And yes I did study Latin for about 10 years).
- telemachos 17y ago
  Different countries personify their nations in different ways, or not at all. The Latin word patria is feminine, and Cicero and others personified Roma as a woman. That said, 'fatherland' is not necessarily an unreasonable translation of patria, depending on the context. (It does have some unfortunate overtones now, but that's accidental.)
  - LyBar 17y ago
    The Latin word patria is feminine -- If that is the case,then riddle me this: Why are Kings referred to as patriarchs and Queens referred to as Matriarchs? Why is one's father's family called Paternal relatives and one's mother's considered maternal relatives? Why is the Latin word for father pater, patr and for mother mater, matr? Why do the electronic and online translaters say patria means fatherland?

bbg 17y ago

The phrase is from Horace, Carmen 3.2, line 13. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0025%3Abook%3D3%3Apoem%3D2 http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%... Whether it's ironic or not is hard to say. It doesn't really sound like it. First he urges a boy to become skilled in war, then he pictures the boy's fiancee begging him not to fight against the enemy's star fighter -- a lion of a warrior. Then the poet says, "it is sweet and fitting to die on behalf of one's country," and goes on the describe the heroic qualities of personified Virtue in face of opposition. Horace did claim to have himself thrown away his shield and fled from battle when in the service of the republican cause (the side of Brutus) after the death of Caesar. But he's also picking up on a theme used by early Greek poets, like Alcaeus, so it's questionable how much of this confession is literary trope and how much is historical evidence. Furthermore, Horace had been fighting on the losing side, and he later found it necessary to receive pardon from the victor Octavian (aka Augustus), so better to sound like he supported the republicans only half-heartedly. On the other hand, it might well still be true that he ditched his shield and ran. The poem dates from after his military experience, and belongs to a collection of poems called the 'Roman Odes' that celebrate Rome and the emperor Augustus. I think that's mostly correct, but it's been a while since I studied these things.

carey 17y ago

For added poignancy, the author of the poem, Wilfred Owen, was killed one week before the end of the war, and his mother (apocryphally?) received the telegram as the bells rang for the first Armistice Day.

balding_n_tired 17y ago

Good point,bbg--it struck me as a bit like Robert Burns writing "The Devil Away with the Excise Man". I believe that the line is close to being a translation from a line in one of Tyrtaeus's poems. I definitely vote with telemachos on this one.