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You expect the government to use secret surveillance and disinformation campaigns against a wartime enemy. You probably don't expect the government to use secre

by cubano 12y ago

You expect the government to use secret surveillance and disinformation campaigns against a wartime enemy. You probably don't expect the government to use secret surveillance and disinformation campaigns in court against its own citizens. Why wouldn't you expect that? Just a cursory reading of the history of civilization shows that, along with warfare, those in power lying to and spying on others has always occurred. Please don't get me wrong, I am not agreeing with it, but at some point I think people need to just wake up and realize this is what they do. I really do not understand why people continue to act shocked or surprised about this.

fit2rule 12y ago
>I really do not understand why people continue to act shocked or surprised about this. Sheeple don't like to think about being fleeced, or turned into tomorrows lamb chop. The belief in the good of the world trumps the reality of dealing with evil.
talmand 12y ago
I would think the same history shows that people continue to be surprised as such revelations. No matter how many times it has happened before. Throughout history human beings have had a serious problem based on the sad idea that "it won't happen to me".
- maxerickson 12y ago
  That's not entirely fair to modern forms of government, which to a large extent anticipate the problems. The Bill of Rights is a list of things that government power should not be used for. (Yes, I realize that it is easy to come up with abuses of the Bill of Rights, my point is that the Bill of Rights was not written based on the sad idea that you mention there, it was written for pretty much exactly the opposite reason)
  - talmand 12y ago
    It is entirely fair; it's fair to point out that without constant vigilance every form of government can slide into oppression of its people. Yes, the Bill of Rights was written to counter the abuses of the government it sought to replace. But over time these things tend to slip into oppression. It has nothing to do with those that attempt to make change, it's those that follow and squander the changes provided to them. Governments change, laws change.
- cubano 12y ago
  No...history shows those who forged change and overcame repression anticipated and avoided being influenced and caught up in the bullshit. Lest we forget..."those who ignore the lessons of history blah blah blah"
  - talmand 12y ago
    As I stated in a related comment, I'm not speaking of the people who fought against such corruption and oppression. I'm speaking of the people who follow behind and eventually screw it up. That's one reason why revolutions keep happening throughout our history.
johnchristopher 12y ago
> I really do not understand why people continue to act shocked or surprised about this. Because they grew out of their teenage angst: >> You expect the government to use secret surveillance and disinformation campaigns against a wartime enemy. You probably don't expect the government to use secret surveillance and disinformation campaigns in court against its own citizens. > Why wouldn't you expect that? Because these aren't the values we want to uphold in our public discourses. As a society we all think our leaders, our chiefs, our representatives are good people acting for the common good. This is what we want as `a people`. What we think we should strive for. Of course we are not there (yet). But complete relative cynicism about the state of things is not going to make it happen either. Edit: The use of the verb `expect` here is clearly not meant to be `they are all idiots who believe anything the gubment tell them`. Sheesh.
- cubano 12y ago
  Because these aren't the values we want to uphold in our public discourses. As a society we all think our leaders, our chiefs, our representatives are good people acting for the common good. Of course we all want that, but I'm sorry, history proves there is very little evidence that we consistantly get it, so expecting it, it seems to me, is like expecting rain in the middle of the desert. It happens, yes, but it's a fools game waiting for it.
wfo 12y ago
Just because something happens doesn't mean it's not morally reprehensible. Where does your cynical and tired "everyone with power is evil I just read the prince for the first time" attitude get you? The only result I see is a dismissal of concerns for the welfare of our society and culture and an excuse for ignoring any and all injustice because "that's the way the world is", i.e. complacency and tacit acceptance. You can be a student of history and unsurprised but no less outraged when these events transpire; outrage reinforces in our society the cultural belief the action is _not acceptable_. When we lose the outrage, we provide the actions with tacit support as the new norm. What exactly are you proposing instead?
- cubano 12y ago
  Where does your cynical and tired "everyone with power is evil I just read the prince for the first time" attitude get you? It prepares me to take the extra precautions needed to avoid being captured in these social and political "traps" time and time again. What else? Awareness and acceptance are always the first step.
  - wfo 12y ago
    We certainly agree about awareness; acceptance (which is a nice way of saying 'giving up') is the first step towards losing _all_ of your rights, not just some.
    - cubano 12y ago
      In this case acceptance simply means facing the ugly reality that, in the real world, actors in power will rarely if ever fail to exercise it for their benefit and not yours. The French revolution is a great example of this Realpolitik in action. The people rose up and overthrew their monarch, only to find just a few years later that very little actually changed, except the names of the principle actors and how power was distributed.
      - CamperBob2 12y ago
        For a more contemporary example, see the so-called revolutions of the "Arab Spring." Ask an Egyptian how that particular revolution's going for them. The rise of statist apologetics is probably the one thing about Internet-based discussions that disturbs me the most.

by cubano 12y ago

fit2rule 12y ago

>I really do not understand why people continue to act shocked or surprised about this. Sheeple don't like to think about being fleeced, or turned into tomorrows lamb chop. The belief in the good of the world trumps the reality of dealing with evil.

talmand 12y ago

I would think the same history shows that people continue to be surprised as such revelations. No matter how many times it has happened before. Throughout history human beings have had a serious problem based on the sad idea that "it won't happen to me".

maxerickson 12y ago
That's not entirely fair to modern forms of government, which to a large extent anticipate the problems. The Bill of Rights is a list of things that government power should not be used for. (Yes, I realize that it is easy to come up with abuses of the Bill of Rights, my point is that the Bill of Rights was not written based on the sad idea that you mention there, it was written for pretty much exactly the opposite reason)
- talmand 12y ago
  It is entirely fair; it's fair to point out that without constant vigilance every form of government can slide into oppression of its people. Yes, the Bill of Rights was written to counter the abuses of the government it sought to replace. But over time these things tend to slip into oppression. It has nothing to do with those that attempt to make change, it's those that follow and squander the changes provided to them. Governments change, laws change.
cubano 12y ago
No...history shows those who forged change and overcame repression anticipated and avoided being influenced and caught up in the bullshit. Lest we forget..."those who ignore the lessons of history blah blah blah"
- talmand 12y ago
  As I stated in a related comment, I'm not speaking of the people who fought against such corruption and oppression. I'm speaking of the people who follow behind and eventually screw it up. That's one reason why revolutions keep happening throughout our history.

johnchristopher 12y ago

> I really do not understand why people continue to act shocked or surprised about this. Because they grew out of their teenage angst: >> You expect the government to use secret surveillance and disinformation campaigns against a wartime enemy. You probably don't expect the government to use secret surveillance and disinformation campaigns in court against its own citizens. > Why wouldn't you expect that? Because these aren't the values we want to uphold in our public discourses. As a society we all think our leaders, our chiefs, our representatives are good people acting for the common good. This is what we want as `a people`. What we think we should strive for. Of course we are not there (yet). But complete relative cynicism about the state of things is not going to make it happen either. Edit: The use of the verb `expect` here is clearly not meant to be `they are all idiots who believe anything the gubment tell them`. Sheesh.

cubano 12y ago
Because these aren't the values we want to uphold in our public discourses. As a society we all think our leaders, our chiefs, our representatives are good people acting for the common good. Of course we all want that, but I'm sorry, history proves there is very little evidence that we consistantly get it, so expecting it, it seems to me, is like expecting rain in the middle of the desert. It happens, yes, but it's a fools game waiting for it.

wfo 12y ago

Just because something happens doesn't mean it's not morally reprehensible. Where does your cynical and tired "everyone with power is evil I just read the prince for the first time" attitude get you? The only result I see is a dismissal of concerns for the welfare of our society and culture and an excuse for ignoring any and all injustice because "that's the way the world is", i.e. complacency and tacit acceptance. You can be a student of history and unsurprised but no less outraged when these events transpire; outrage reinforces in our society the cultural belief the action is _not acceptable_. When we lose the outrage, we provide the actions with tacit support as the new norm. What exactly are you proposing instead?

cubano 12y ago
Where does your cynical and tired "everyone with power is evil I just read the prince for the first time" attitude get you? It prepares me to take the extra precautions needed to avoid being captured in these social and political "traps" time and time again. What else? Awareness and acceptance are always the first step.
- wfo 12y ago
  We certainly agree about awareness; acceptance (which is a nice way of saying 'giving up') is the first step towards losing _all_ of your rights, not just some.
  - cubano 12y ago
    In this case acceptance simply means facing the ugly reality that, in the real world, actors in power will rarely if ever fail to exercise it for their benefit and not yours. The French revolution is a great example of this Realpolitik in action. The people rose up and overthrew their monarch, only to find just a few years later that very little actually changed, except the names of the principle actors and how power was distributed.
    - CamperBob2 12y ago
      For a more contemporary example, see the so-called revolutions of the "Arab Spring." Ask an Egyptian how that particular revolution's going for them. The rise of statist apologetics is probably the one thing about Internet-based discussions that disturbs me the most.