5 ms·

World’s first head transplant volunteer could experience “worse than death”

19 points by ph0rque 12y ago

dalke 12y ago
HN has an odd fascination for this surgeon's claim, with over 30 posts to it over the last two years, when the surgeon's claims first made the news. https://hn.algolia.com/?query=head%20transplant&sort=byPopularity&prefix&page=0&dateRange=all&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?query=head%20transplant&sort=byPopul... . This proposal is unethical. To show why, consider Christiaan Barnard, who did the first heart transplant. His first operation failed. So did his next. But his first 50+ attempts were on dogs, and were eventually successful. Only then did he do a heart transplant on a person. (Yes, I find it easier to kill dogs to save the lives of humans than to kill humans for the same reason. Don't mistake that for thinking I find it easy to kill dogs.) That operation was a success, though the patient died 18 days later due to pneumonia as he was taking immunosuppressive drugs. Where are the dogs with a successful head transplant? Or rats or monkeys or other mammal? One of the links a couple of years ago was to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5972171 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5972171 : > Jerry Silver, a colleague of White’s [who did monkey head/body transplant experiments in the 1970s] and the neurosurgeon behind the rat spinal cord experiment [where a rat's severed head was reconnected with its own body], objects to the entire notion of a human head/body transplant. “It’s complete fantasy,” he said in an interview with CBS News. Reminiscing about the psychic torture that he believes White’s original monkey patient suffered, he added, “I remember that the head would wake up, the facial expressions looked like terrible pain and confusion and anxiety.” He dismissed Canavero’s theory as “bad science.” Given how controversial the monkey experiment itself was, it’s highly likely that Silver is one of many. I like jessriedel's comment in the HN discussion from 647 days ago at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5972171 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5972171 : > There are plenty of crazy doctors out there who make nutzo claims not backed up by evidence in their field. One neuroscientist chosen at random is probably reasonable and competent, but a neuroscientist chosen conditional on publishing an astounding claim that isn't shared by any of his colleagues is almost certain to be cray.
- ddorian43 12y ago
  By reading the article, looks like the guy is going to die pretty soon ? But they didn't specify where would they find the body (it should be fresh, right?) ?
  - dalke 12y ago
    If it's unethical, why does it matter where the body comes from?
    - ddorian43 12y ago
      Being unethical doesn't remove my curiosity.
  - lsaferite 12y ago
    I would guess it has to be a brain-dead organ donor.
- jvictor118 12y ago
  That's really shocking, if he hasn't already done animal studies -- definitely hadn't realized that. Certainly didn't realize it was legal, even under Russian law, even on a near-death patient. Do you think that his intentions are ignoble? Or do you think he's simply reckless?
- MoistDinosaur 12y ago
  pretty sure this was his first successful dog transplant: http://imaginarycinema.com/images/burton/normal_ma_509.jpg http://imaginarycinema.com/images/burton/normal_ma_509.jpg
- chaosfactor 12y ago
  The patient is of sound mind and agrees to the transplant. That makes it ethical.
  - dalke 12y ago
jvictor118 12y ago
This seems simultaneously wonderful and horrifying -- how many deaths could be avoided if you could simply get a "body transplant" when things go south with your heart, liver, whatever? Neuroscience would gain a new level of importance for sure. And does that bring to mind for anyone that weird movie about where you have to purchase minutes of life to stay alive? Anyway, creepy, considering how real the illicit trade in transplant organs is already.
- ddorian43 12y ago
  Easier to do ogran-transplant than whole body. What we'll need is brain+body backup and we're set (but you have to test backups to know that they function..).
- elcct 12y ago
  Even better if you could held a head alive without the body for a long period of time. Then you could attach head to a robot or something like that.
  - elmar 12y ago
    Futurama Heads in Jars http://futurama.wikia.com/wiki/Heads_in_Jars http://futurama.wikia.com/wiki/Heads_in_Jars
ericmo 12y ago
If the whole thing is about disability, wouldn't the best solution be in stem cells research? PS: At least in Shadowrun you only get 6 units of Essence.
elmar 12y ago
[Frankenstein mode=ON]

19 points by ph0rque 12y ago

dalke 12y ago

HN has an odd fascination for this surgeon's claim, with over 30 posts to it over the last two years, when the surgeon's claims first made the news. https://hn.algolia.com/?query=head%20transplant&sort=byPopularity&prefix&page=0&dateRange=all&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?query=head%20transplant&sort=byPopul... . This proposal is unethical. To show why, consider Christiaan Barnard, who did the first heart transplant. His first operation failed. So did his next. But his first 50+ attempts were on dogs, and were eventually successful. Only then did he do a heart transplant on a person. (Yes, I find it easier to kill dogs to save the lives of humans than to kill humans for the same reason. Don't mistake that for thinking I find it easy to kill dogs.) That operation was a success, though the patient died 18 days later due to pneumonia as he was taking immunosuppressive drugs. Where are the dogs with a successful head transplant? Or rats or monkeys or other mammal? One of the links a couple of years ago was to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5972171 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5972171 : > Jerry Silver, a colleague of White’s [who did monkey head/body transplant experiments in the 1970s] and the neurosurgeon behind the rat spinal cord experiment [where a rat's severed head was reconnected with its own body], objects to the entire notion of a human head/body transplant. “It’s complete fantasy,” he said in an interview with CBS News. Reminiscing about the psychic torture that he believes White’s original monkey patient suffered, he added, “I remember that the head would wake up, the facial expressions looked like terrible pain and confusion and anxiety.” He dismissed Canavero’s theory as “bad science.” Given how controversial the monkey experiment itself was, it’s highly likely that Silver is one of many. I like jessriedel's comment in the HN discussion from 647 days ago at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5972171 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5972171 : > There are plenty of crazy doctors out there who make nutzo claims not backed up by evidence in their field. One neuroscientist chosen at random is probably reasonable and competent, but a neuroscientist chosen conditional on publishing an astounding claim that isn't shared by any of his colleagues is almost certain to be cray.

ddorian43 12y ago
By reading the article, looks like the guy is going to die pretty soon ? But they didn't specify where would they find the body (it should be fresh, right?) ?
- dalke 12y ago
  If it's unethical, why does it matter where the body comes from?
  - ddorian43 12y ago
    Being unethical doesn't remove my curiosity.
- lsaferite 12y ago
  I would guess it has to be a brain-dead organ donor.
jvictor118 12y ago
That's really shocking, if he hasn't already done animal studies -- definitely hadn't realized that. Certainly didn't realize it was legal, even under Russian law, even on a near-death patient. Do you think that his intentions are ignoble? Or do you think he's simply reckless?
MoistDinosaur 12y ago
pretty sure this was his first successful dog transplant: http://imaginarycinema.com/images/burton/normal_ma_509.jpg http://imaginarycinema.com/images/burton/normal_ma_509.jpg
chaosfactor 12y ago
The patient is of sound mind and agrees to the transplant. That makes it ethical.
- dalke 12y ago

jvictor118 12y ago

This seems simultaneously wonderful and horrifying -- how many deaths could be avoided if you could simply get a "body transplant" when things go south with your heart, liver, whatever? Neuroscience would gain a new level of importance for sure. And does that bring to mind for anyone that weird movie about where you have to purchase minutes of life to stay alive? Anyway, creepy, considering how real the illicit trade in transplant organs is already.

ddorian43 12y ago
Easier to do ogran-transplant than whole body. What we'll need is brain+body backup and we're set (but you have to test backups to know that they function..).
elcct 12y ago
Even better if you could held a head alive without the body for a long period of time. Then you could attach head to a robot or something like that.
- elmar 12y ago
  Futurama Heads in Jars http://futurama.wikia.com/wiki/Heads_in_Jars http://futurama.wikia.com/wiki/Heads_in_Jars

ericmo 12y ago

If the whole thing is about disability, wouldn't the best solution be in stem cells research? PS: At least in Shadowrun you only get 6 units of Essence.

elmar 12y ago

[Frankenstein mode=ON]