4 ms·

It makes me wonder if there's any medical way (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_magnetic_stimulation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_magnetic

It makes me wonder if there's any medical way (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_magnetic_stimulation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_magnetic_stimulati... ?) to jam the fight-or-flight mechanism, and force human pilots to stay cool as a cucumber?

arnold_palmur 12y ago
Maybe something along the lines of a beta-blocker?
- pdkl95 12y ago
  Beta blockers are exactly what you want, but note that they can only provide a moderate level of effect; taking more could do bad this to blood pressure while the anti-panic effect suffers rapidly diminishing returns. I found this out by accident after being prescribed a beta-blocker for typical blood pressure reasons while I was trying to deal with some panic-attack issues that were serious enough to need a mild benzodiazepine. After starting the beta-blocker, the need for the benzo just went away. While the benzo was effective at blocking part of the recursive/positive-feedback loop of panic, the beta-blocker was much better at preventing the feedback loop from forming at all. Later on, a friend of mine who attended RISD mentioned that the drug of choice that was sought by all the art students was beta-blockers, so they could present their projects without all the stage fright. /* obDisclaimer: This is not medical advice. Taking any drug can be dangerous. See a real doctor. etc */
  - arnold_palmur 12y ago
    Very interesting - also apparently the drug of choice for many musical performances as well. I've read that it doesn't necessarily calm your nerves, but rather prevents the all consuming fight or flight feeling from manifesting, ultimately curbing something like a panic attack.
rasz_pl 12y ago
There is - experience in critical situations of similar nature. Experience makes it less severe and more manageable. Couple personal examples. I did teakwondo and kickboxing. When I was starting Teakwondo (~16 year old) first sparrings were dominated by fear and anxiety. I didnt know how to act, what to expect, I was physically shaking. Fast forward few months and I was in control, anxiety turned into excitement, fear into caution. My body and mind learned to use that sudden adrenaline injection to my advantage. Two years later I moved to kickboxing. Its very different sport, more violent, faster and can be significantly more painful in the ring, nonetheless my experience from teakwondo translated perfectly. Since then I had couple of dangerous situations on the street (drunk idiots, football fans etc) and again I was in control of my body and reactions, my previous experience of being punched repeatedly in the face inside the ring helped me stay calm :) Second example is virtual. Eve Online is a space themed MMO. Everything you own in the game has to be earned or paid for with real money, and all losses are persistent and final. Someone kills your ship worth two months of heavy missioning? its GONE forever. This design choice makes Eve Online the only computer game inducing real fight-or-flight reaction that I know of(outside tournaments/leagues). Losses can be as small as 10 minutes of your time (couple of cents), and as severe as $1000 blink mission ship you spend whole last year to build. First PVP fights in Eve were exactly the same as my first sparring 10 years before :) heart pounding, hands shaking, sphincter gripped tight etc :) and mistakes ending in expensive wrecks. It took some time and experience to fully take control of the situation. Can write something about bike riding(crashing), but it will be the same story again :) I wonder if pilots with military background, trained in battle sims in high pressure situations, are significantly better at handling emergency. My own experience makes me think definitely yes.
- JulianMorrison 12y ago
  This is kinda exactly what I was NOT meaning. You're talking about ways of handling the "known unknowns" - trainable scenarios. The article already talked about that. I'm talking about taking the whole issue off the board, including the "unknown unknowns", that you can't train for except in the most general way, by shutting the fight-or-flight mechanism down completely.
  - 12y ago
protonfish 12y ago
I think the explanation that physiology is responsible for this accident is questionable. The Taipei pilot made a mistake in an emergency - a situation where a decision has to be made in a very short time. If a computer algorithm needed 60 seconds to compute a result, but it was needed in 10 seconds, and that result ended up being wrong, what would you blame? Reducing the time to solve a problem will decrease the accuracy of the solution. It's a logical constraint, not a flaw in evolution.

arnold_palmur 12y ago

Maybe something along the lines of a beta-blocker?

pdkl95 12y ago
Beta blockers are exactly what you want, but note that they can only provide a moderate level of effect; taking more could do bad this to blood pressure while the anti-panic effect suffers rapidly diminishing returns. I found this out by accident after being prescribed a beta-blocker for typical blood pressure reasons while I was trying to deal with some panic-attack issues that were serious enough to need a mild benzodiazepine. After starting the beta-blocker, the need for the benzo just went away. While the benzo was effective at blocking part of the recursive/positive-feedback loop of panic, the beta-blocker was much better at preventing the feedback loop from forming at all. Later on, a friend of mine who attended RISD mentioned that the drug of choice that was sought by all the art students was beta-blockers, so they could present their projects without all the stage fright. /* obDisclaimer: This is not medical advice. Taking any drug can be dangerous. See a real doctor. etc */
- arnold_palmur 12y ago
  Very interesting - also apparently the drug of choice for many musical performances as well. I've read that it doesn't necessarily calm your nerves, but rather prevents the all consuming fight or flight feeling from manifesting, ultimately curbing something like a panic attack.

rasz_pl 12y ago

There is - experience in critical situations of similar nature. Experience makes it less severe and more manageable. Couple personal examples. I did teakwondo and kickboxing. When I was starting Teakwondo (~16 year old) first sparrings were dominated by fear and anxiety. I didnt know how to act, what to expect, I was physically shaking. Fast forward few months and I was in control, anxiety turned into excitement, fear into caution. My body and mind learned to use that sudden adrenaline injection to my advantage. Two years later I moved to kickboxing. Its very different sport, more violent, faster and can be significantly more painful in the ring, nonetheless my experience from teakwondo translated perfectly. Since then I had couple of dangerous situations on the street (drunk idiots, football fans etc) and again I was in control of my body and reactions, my previous experience of being punched repeatedly in the face inside the ring helped me stay calm :) Second example is virtual. Eve Online is a space themed MMO. Everything you own in the game has to be earned or paid for with real money, and all losses are persistent and final. Someone kills your ship worth two months of heavy missioning? its GONE forever. This design choice makes Eve Online the only computer game inducing real fight-or-flight reaction that I know of(outside tournaments/leagues). Losses can be as small as 10 minutes of your time (couple of cents), and as severe as $1000 blink mission ship you spend whole last year to build. First PVP fights in Eve were exactly the same as my first sparring 10 years before :) heart pounding, hands shaking, sphincter gripped tight etc :) and mistakes ending in expensive wrecks. It took some time and experience to fully take control of the situation. Can write something about bike riding(crashing), but it will be the same story again :) I wonder if pilots with military background, trained in battle sims in high pressure situations, are significantly better at handling emergency. My own experience makes me think definitely yes.

JulianMorrison 12y ago
This is kinda exactly what I was NOT meaning. You're talking about ways of handling the "known unknowns" - trainable scenarios. The article already talked about that. I'm talking about taking the whole issue off the board, including the "unknown unknowns", that you can't train for except in the most general way, by shutting the fight-or-flight mechanism down completely.
- 12y ago

protonfish 12y ago

I think the explanation that physiology is responsible for this accident is questionable. The Taipei pilot made a mistake in an emergency - a situation where a decision has to be made in a very short time. If a computer algorithm needed 60 seconds to compute a result, but it was needed in 10 seconds, and that result ended up being wrong, what would you blame? Reducing the time to solve a problem will decrease the accuracy of the solution. It's a logical constraint, not a flaw in evolution.