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With this negative image among developers in the Valley, how is Apple able to attract top quality engineers? They probably are not. Anecdotally, I still haven't

With this negative image among developers in the Valley, how is Apple able to attract top quality engineers? They probably are not. Anecdotally, I still haven't met one single engineer who would love to work for Apple though they love using Apple products. Apple is not even on the list of all top graduating kids who wants a job in top valley firms (Google, FB, Dropbox, Twitter, AirBnB, Uber, Pinterest, LinkedIn, Quora, other promising startups). Any software engineer who is in the valley for a while (and heard the inside horror stories of working for Apple) wouldn't want to work there. There is no way in hell, senior engineers from the new age tech companies (listed above) will go to Apple. Apple will have a hard-time poaching them. Based on this, I have to conclude that most good engineers@Apple are candidates who have a tenure of more than 15 years and are aging. All, relatively new Apple employees are either left-overs in the talent-pool who couldn't make the cut to the above top firms/startups or really B-grade senior engineers. What is Apple's strategy of thriving in a knowledge economy, when the only asset you need are "great people" to succeed in the long term. They probably have great hardware engineers. It is a travesty that though they are the richest company in the world, they still couldn't build a compelling cloud services suite which is better and cheaper than what Dropbox, Google, Box, Microsoft can provide. This comment, will probably ruffle a few feathers. [updated for typos/grammar]

bbcbasic 12y ago
Yes the silver fox is IT's best kept secret.
- thirdtruck 12y ago
  What's a "Silver Fox" in this context?
  - michaelt 12y ago
    I assume that refers to this bit: Based on this, I have to conclude that most good engineers@Apple are candidates who have a tenure of more than 15 years and are aging. With "silver" meaning grey hair and "fox" meaning clever.
    - thirdtruck 12y ago
      Ah. That makes sense.
eastbayjake 12y ago
Acqui-hires, amigo... swallow a company, fire the bottom 10%, give the rest offers, see who sticks around after 1-2 years. They're gobbling up companies so fast that they're running out of office space to house them all.
- alvarosm 12y ago
  and they have plenty of cash to keep at it forever
- throwaway6497 12y ago
  Acqui-hiring cannot be a long term strategy to nurture and build a strong internal talent pool. Google simply has done an outstanding job at this. Most start-up founders/employees share YC startups' cultural ethos, and will get stifled under Apple. Many of them will get demotivated, lose steam and leave as soon as their golden handcuffs expire.
  - skizm 12y ago
    With something like $150 billion+ in the bank, it might just be a long term viable strategy.
    - gaius 12y ago
      ... Until the taxman catches up with them. Then it's game over.
      - cpach 12y ago
        What do you mean? Are Apple not complying with the tax law?
        gaius 12y ago
        I mean that to continue their strategy they will need to onshore the money, at which point it will be taxed, at which point it looks far less viable in the long term.
imperio59 12y ago
They sound like Amazon up here in Seattle, but at least Amazon has pockets of goodness... This sounds way more widespread.
Nicholas_C 12y ago
Not a developer but I would definitely do a 2+ year stint at Apple to get the name on my resume and find out what it's like to work at one of the largest and most profitable tech companies ever. I'm sure there's an incredible amount to learn and the pay is nice as well.
- andybak 12y ago
  How old are you? 2 years is quite a long time to some folks.
  - mwfunk 12y ago
    2 years is a long time to teenagers, I can't imagine it's a long time to anyone else.
  - Nicholas_C 12y ago
    25 years of age.
mark-r 12y ago
I wonder if this explains the general impression that Apple's software quality is slipping over time?
golergka 12y ago
From the outside, it definitely looks like the closer it gets to hardware, the better engineers at Apple get. Metal is awesome, Metal shading language and recent clang progress not bad too, Swift a little bit wonky but interesting — but the quality of their customer-facing software, especially ui stuff (not design, but I engineering) is getting worse and worse. It just doesn't "just work" anymore.
- Kalium 12y ago
  One commenter - I believe it was here on HN - said something I thought was very insightful. They said it's difficult to see software when you're looking at your computer edge-on - and that's apparently the only way Apple ever looks at their products anymore.
- visarga 12y ago
  For the first time in the last ten years, I have downgraded my OS to 10.9 after having a disastrous experience with 10.10. I don't plan on upgrading back, at least not on this computer.
  - kagamine 12y ago
    It's when your Linux distro on a 5 year old HP laptop seems more polished than your 27" iMac from 2 years ago that you begin to wonder what has gone wrong at Apple. Two days ago I said aloud to a screen ", OS X is turning into Windows".
    - golergka 12y ago
      And by Windows, you probably mean your memory of when you last used it as a main OS. I moved to OS X 5 years ago, and recently I realised that a lot of my assumptions about Windows are no longer true. Now, I contemplate moving back.
      - kagamine 12y ago
        Well I use Windows daily as a dev at a MS Partnered company but you are still correct in that when I said OSX is turning into Win I was thinking of the XP/Vista era. I am not a huge fan of either 7 or 8 tbh, but that is acknowledged as a personal preference in much the same way as I sold a practical commuter car to buy something "i like driving more". The problem with OSX now, as I see it, is that as Windows irons out the problems that made *nix users dislike it, OSX seems to be allowing those problems (both engineering and usability) to creep in.
gkanapathy 12y ago
I think designers and marketers still aspire to work at Apple.
panic 12y ago
You only hear the negative stories because of Apple's culture of secrecy. Writing publicly about the company is a big no-no.
- deong 12y ago
  It's not that secret though. Sure, you only read first-hand accounts by people who have left, but it's not like Apple employees are out with their friends over beers refusing to talk about how many hours they work. Everyone in the valley probably knows someone who knows someone who works there. At some point, the constant background level of "yeah, it kind of sucks" is pretty convincing.
cgh 12y ago
The same goes for Microsoft, Cisco, Oracle...basically any technology behemoth other than possibly Google. I know Apple recently poached a bunch of people from one of the above-named companies.
azakai 12y ago
> With this negative image among developers in the Valley, how is Apple able to attract top quality engineers? They probably are not. I met several current and former Apple employees. Many of them are extremely talented. Based on my anecdotal experience, that doesn't show Apple has any problem attracting top quality engineers.
- dba7dba 12y ago
  Hardware engineers maybe? Not sure about software engineers.
masmullin 12y ago
> how is Apple able to attract top quality engineers? From the rumours I've heard, they pay marginally higher salaries.
cmrdporcupine 12y ago
I think as an engineer the type of things one might get to work on at Apple could be more interesting than the type of things one would get to work on at a bunch of the companies you just listed. At Apple there's everything from OS to compiler to drivers to UI to hardware, etc. I don't want to work there, as I know people who have and it sucked, but, I can see the appeal for some. Also one person I know who did a stint there got some rather obscenely large amounts of cash.

bbcbasic 12y ago

Yes the silver fox is IT's best kept secret.

thirdtruck 12y ago
What's a "Silver Fox" in this context?
- michaelt 12y ago
  I assume that refers to this bit: Based on this, I have to conclude that most good engineers@Apple are candidates who have a tenure of more than 15 years and are aging. With "silver" meaning grey hair and "fox" meaning clever.
  - thirdtruck 12y ago
    Ah. That makes sense.

eastbayjake 12y ago

Acqui-hires, amigo... swallow a company, fire the bottom 10%, give the rest offers, see who sticks around after 1-2 years. They're gobbling up companies so fast that they're running out of office space to house them all.

alvarosm 12y ago
and they have plenty of cash to keep at it forever
throwaway6497 12y ago
Acqui-hiring cannot be a long term strategy to nurture and build a strong internal talent pool. Google simply has done an outstanding job at this. Most start-up founders/employees share YC startups' cultural ethos, and will get stifled under Apple. Many of them will get demotivated, lose steam and leave as soon as their golden handcuffs expire.
- skizm 12y ago
  With something like $150 billion+ in the bank, it might just be a long term viable strategy.
  - gaius 12y ago
    ... Until the taxman catches up with them. Then it's game over.
    - cpach 12y ago
      What do you mean? Are Apple not complying with the tax law?
      - gaius 12y ago
        I mean that to continue their strategy they will need to onshore the money, at which point it will be taxed, at which point it looks far less viable in the long term.

imperio59 12y ago

They sound like Amazon up here in Seattle, but at least Amazon has pockets of goodness... This sounds way more widespread.

Nicholas_C 12y ago

Not a developer but I would definitely do a 2+ year stint at Apple to get the name on my resume and find out what it's like to work at one of the largest and most profitable tech companies ever. I'm sure there's an incredible amount to learn and the pay is nice as well.

andybak 12y ago
How old are you? 2 years is quite a long time to some folks.
- mwfunk 12y ago
  2 years is a long time to teenagers, I can't imagine it's a long time to anyone else.
- Nicholas_C 12y ago
  25 years of age.

mark-r 12y ago

I wonder if this explains the general impression that Apple's software quality is slipping over time?

golergka 12y ago

From the outside, it definitely looks like the closer it gets to hardware, the better engineers at Apple get. Metal is awesome, Metal shading language and recent clang progress not bad too, Swift a little bit wonky but interesting — but the quality of their customer-facing software, especially ui stuff (not design, but I engineering) is getting worse and worse. It just doesn't "just work" anymore.

Kalium 12y ago
One commenter - I believe it was here on HN - said something I thought was very insightful. They said it's difficult to see software when you're looking at your computer edge-on - and that's apparently the only way Apple ever looks at their products anymore.
visarga 12y ago
For the first time in the last ten years, I have downgraded my OS to 10.9 after having a disastrous experience with 10.10. I don't plan on upgrading back, at least not on this computer.
- kagamine 12y ago
  It's when your Linux distro on a 5 year old HP laptop seems more polished than your 27" iMac from 2 years ago that you begin to wonder what has gone wrong at Apple. Two days ago I said aloud to a screen ", OS X is turning into Windows".
  - golergka 12y ago
    And by Windows, you probably mean your memory of when you last used it as a main OS. I moved to OS X 5 years ago, and recently I realised that a lot of my assumptions about Windows are no longer true. Now, I contemplate moving back.
    - kagamine 12y ago
      Well I use Windows daily as a dev at a MS Partnered company but you are still correct in that when I said OSX is turning into Win I was thinking of the XP/Vista era. I am not a huge fan of either 7 or 8 tbh, but that is acknowledged as a personal preference in much the same way as I sold a practical commuter car to buy something "i like driving more". The problem with OSX now, as I see it, is that as Windows irons out the problems that made *nix users dislike it, OSX seems to be allowing those problems (both engineering and usability) to creep in.

gkanapathy 12y ago

I think designers and marketers still aspire to work at Apple.

panic 12y ago

You only hear the negative stories because of Apple's culture of secrecy. Writing publicly about the company is a big no-no.

deong 12y ago
It's not that secret though. Sure, you only read first-hand accounts by people who have left, but it's not like Apple employees are out with their friends over beers refusing to talk about how many hours they work. Everyone in the valley probably knows someone who knows someone who works there. At some point, the constant background level of "yeah, it kind of sucks" is pretty convincing.

cgh 12y ago

The same goes for Microsoft, Cisco, Oracle...basically any technology behemoth other than possibly Google. I know Apple recently poached a bunch of people from one of the above-named companies.

azakai 12y ago

> With this negative image among developers in the Valley, how is Apple able to attract top quality engineers? They probably are not. I met several current and former Apple employees. Many of them are extremely talented. Based on my anecdotal experience, that doesn't show Apple has any problem attracting top quality engineers.

dba7dba 12y ago
Hardware engineers maybe? Not sure about software engineers.

masmullin 12y ago

> how is Apple able to attract top quality engineers? From the rumours I've heard, they pay marginally higher salaries.

cmrdporcupine 12y ago

I think as an engineer the type of things one might get to work on at Apple could be more interesting than the type of things one would get to work on at a bunch of the companies you just listed. At Apple there's everything from OS to compiler to drivers to UI to hardware, etc. I don't want to work there, as I know people who have and it sucked, but, I can see the appeal for some. Also one person I know who did a stint there got some rather obscenely large amounts of cash.