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Agreed. Sounds like it acts like many (not all!) others. I've worked at a lot of places. I've been told that open-heart surgery would be counted as a vacation

Agreed. Sounds like it acts like many (not all!) others. I've worked at a lot of places. I've been told that open-heart surgery would be counted as a vacation day. I've been in 3-hour meetings where a dozen executives bickered the whole time over how one toggle should be labeled. I've been where fully half the employees had been fired and continued working on the sheer grace/need of the owner. I've been given hard deadlines to complete hundreds of pages of documentation nobody would ever read. Etc...and plenty of people on HN have their own equivalent stories. Apple is a big company, and can't keep everything pristine and orderly, and still has to meet massive big-budget deadlines by every means necessary. The kicker: Apple gets results. One way or another, that system works; one company does not have one product take over fully half of an entire major electronics market unless they're doing something right.

Chinjut 12y ago
You seem to be implicitly conflating two different senses of the word "right". I don't think it was in any doubt that this kind of behavior can be to Apple's profit(+). What's in doubt is whether it is behavior which the rest of us should put up with; market dominance is not the end-all, be-all arbiter of desirable behavior, at least not to me. (+: Some people will try to get rid of this kind of behavior purely by arguing that it in fact harms an employer's productivity (via burning out their employees). This may be tactically effective, but I think it frames the debate on the wrong terms, conceding too much of the argument at the start; it allows for just as much abuse as maximizes productivity. The reason to get rid of this kind of behavior is not fundamentally because of its impact on the employer's bottom-line, but because the people affected by it are human beings who deserve empathy and dignity regardless)
Apocryphon 12y ago
For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?
- kzhahou 12y ago
  I would fain give up my imaginary "soul" in return for the whole world.
- oldmanjay 12y ago
  There's something amusing about the idea of bringing the "soul" into an adult discussion
vacri 12y ago
and still has to meet massive big-budget deadlines by every means necessary. No, they don't. They have two-digit billions-with-a-b in cash reserves. They could give every human on earth a few dollars and not have to tighten their belts to compensate.

Chinjut 12y ago

You seem to be implicitly conflating two different senses of the word "right". I don't think it was in any doubt that this kind of behavior can be to Apple's profit(+). What's in doubt is whether it is behavior which the rest of us should put up with; market dominance is not the end-all, be-all arbiter of desirable behavior, at least not to me. (+: Some people will try to get rid of this kind of behavior purely by arguing that it in fact harms an employer's productivity (via burning out their employees). This may be tactically effective, but I think it frames the debate on the wrong terms, conceding too much of the argument at the start; it allows for just as much abuse as maximizes productivity. The reason to get rid of this kind of behavior is not fundamentally because of its impact on the employer's bottom-line, but because the people affected by it are human beings who deserve empathy and dignity regardless)

Apocryphon 12y ago

For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?

kzhahou 12y ago
I would fain give up my imaginary "soul" in return for the whole world.
oldmanjay 12y ago
There's something amusing about the idea of bringing the "soul" into an adult discussion

vacri 12y ago

and still has to meet massive big-budget deadlines by every means necessary. No, they don't. They have two-digit billions-with-a-b in cash reserves. They could give every human on earth a few dollars and not have to tighten their belts to compensate.